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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / April 2006Cause and cure of some diseases !
Cause and cure of some diseases ! Why are we not only ignoring the age or cures, but even the scientific field of research; is it that 'they' are not rewarded for simple cures ? In talking with an individual with Crohn's disease I was informed that there were a great many people with the disease in the local hospital and that the doctor had told him that no source was found for the 'disease'. Well common sense would logically suggest that this disease and other similar labeled diseases, ie IBS, are caused by bacteria or parasites. In fact an article published in the Lancet in 2004 suggested that 'clear evidence that a link between bacteria and Crohns. Crohns' follows the historic errors by medical researchers concerning ulcers, that too were found to be caused by bacteria. Here is the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3663336.stm So there are two questions that come to mind. Why are doctors in the year 2006 not aware of this, and two what other 'diseases' can be linked to some sort of bacterial/parasitic cause ?; Chemical imbalances ? MS, and perhaps Cancer ? A simple three part step program can be found to treat and possibly cure these types of diseases. (natural herbal are in quotes and are recommended. 1. Anti-parasite - you may have more than one- wide spectrum anti-biotic (garlic, ginger...) 2. Cleanser - high fiber - ( psyllium ) 3. Probiotic - friendly bacteria to help balance the intestinal flora - (Yogurts) Here is the link: http://www.abeautifuldifference.com/webdoc.535.html Hopefully we can use the power of the internet to convey this important bit of information to all those concerned...including the patients ? Caesar J. B. Squitti Thunder Bay, Ontario Well common sense would logically suggest that this disease and other > similar labeled diseases, ie IBS, are caused by bacteria or parasites. really now? you are THAT sure of that? and the medical research that proves this is....................???? thanks, jeff > Cause and cure of some diseases ! > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Caesar J. B. Squitti > Thunder Bay, Ontario Well, as most on this group know, I have a different version of the cause of crohns and Ulcerative Colitis and it has NOTHING to do with bacteria. My theory is not accepted either by 99% of whom it is told to But I am 100% certain of its validity. Crohns and UC does not fall into the category of the usual illnesses. It is a weird one, and has been debated for many, many, years and no definite conclusion has been reached. Please go to the forum set up by some eye physicians and read my post by the screen name Kureforcrohns titled Crohns and Ulcerative Colitis. The forum is DoctorBrains.org Like the illness itself, the cause is weird too.. Why do I think I know it. Maybe I am weird also to recognize it or more observant or astute. I have been mocked often, but nothing will shake my conviction. Thank You Gail > Well common sense would logically suggest that this disease and other > > similar labeled diseases, ie IBS, are caused by bacteria or parasites. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Caesar J. B. Squitti > > Thunder Bay, Ontario > Well, as most on this group know, I have a different version of the cause > of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Thank You > Gail Hi Gail, I just read several days ago and was surprised. Just wondered if this has ever been discussed on any of your newsgroups? http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/crohns/#what People of Jewish heritage have an increased risk of developing Crohn's disease, and African Americans are at decreased risk for developing Crohn's disease. Tak care, Jan PS. My getting newsgroups problem was, of all things, I was typing in scbglobal.net, instead if s b c global.net. My grandson caught the typo. Had I backed off and gave it a rest, I might have seen it, but no, I stayed up all night and would not give up. sigh... too determined sometimes is not best. Anyway, thanks for your help. >> Well common sense would logically suggest that this disease and other >> > similar labeled diseases, ie IBS, are caused by bacteria or parasites. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario Yes Jan, this has been discussed and it is true. UM MOM Susan > I just read several days ago and was surprised. Just wondered if this has > ever been discussed on any of your newsgroups? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > sigh... too determined sometimes is not best. Anyway, thanks for your > help. Thank you. > Yes Jan, this has been discussed and it is true. UM MOM Susan >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> sigh... too determined sometimes is not best. Anyway, thanks for your >> help. Many of the 'intestional' problems....can be likened to the manner in which cult members joined religious groups and social groups to prey on little children and women... A hidden parasite....preying off the system...corrupting it...all the while saying it is trying to improve it...(the corruption of cells to create cancers...) Caesar J. B. Squitti One of the best 'anti-parastic' herbal treatments is 'garlic'...at $ 2,00 a lb very inexpensive....the second possibly ginger.... I would do an analysis of countries that have high levels of garlic in their diet, ie Italy, and countries with high levels of ginger, ie Vietnam, and see if this makes a difference to the rates of 'intestional problems..."...? Its the macro perspective... Caesar J. B. Squitti > > Well, as most on this group know, I have a different version of the cause > > of [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti > >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario You have to watch out for garlic. It can act as a blood thinner, which crohns doesn't need. I sometimes use aspirin as it steadies the stomach, but that is a bad idea. If you want to find the group that never heard of crohns, try the Christian Scientists. Any country that has stimulants is susceptible, UK seems to have a large number of crohns problems. Gail > One of the best 'anti-parastic' herbal treatments is 'garlic'...at $ > 2,00 a lb very inexpensive....the second possibly ginger.... [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti > > >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario > You have to watch out for garlic. It can act as a blood thinner, which > crohns doesn't need. I sometimes use aspirin as it steadies the stomach, > but that is a bad idea. > If you want to find the group that never heard of crohns, try the > Christian > Scientists. Yep, freind / acquaintancce of mine (an adamantt Christian Scientisst person along with his wife.) Died of Crohns associated problems. > Any country that has stimulants is susceptible, UK seems to have a large > number of crohns problems. > Gail Name a civilized country that doesn't. >> One of the best 'anti-parastic' herbal treatments is 'garlic'...at $ >> 2,00 a lb very inexpensive....the second possibly ginger.... [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] >> > >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti >> > >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario > > You have to watch out for garlic. It can act as a blood thinner, which > > crohns doesn't need. I sometimes use aspirin as it steadies the stomach, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Name a civilized country that doesn't. You appear to ask an "all or nothing' question... Should we not be looking at the percentage of this illness in different parts of the world...and draw a relative comparison...ie Naples, Italy... > >> One of the best 'anti-parastic' herbal treatments is 'garlic'...at $ > >> 2,00 a lb very inexpensive....the second possibly ginger.... [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > >> > >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti > >> > >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario >> > You have to watch out for garlic. It can act as a blood thinner, >> > which [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > parts of the world...and draw a relative comparison...ie Naples, > Italy... Their diet is different and has nothing to do with stimulants. I've been there. Have you? Nothing compares to their coffee or sharp foods along with a huge amount of every vegetable you ever heard of. The high fiber and antioxidants are probably the key, not stimulants. The Mediterranean diet is more tthan just garlic...high in olive oil, fish...long considered to be healthier than the average American diet., which is heavy on red meat, fats, refined foods......ditto Asian diet is healthier - high in rice, fish....not just ginger. .too many other factors to point to just one aspect such as garlic or ginger.... >One of the best 'anti-parastic' herbal treatments is 'garlic'...at $ >2,00 a lb very inexpensive....the second possibly ginger.... [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] >> >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti >> >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario The key anti-parasitic drug in the mediterranean diet is garlic...very, very effective. Caesar J. B. Squitti > The Mediterranean diet is more tthan just garlic...high in olive oil, > fish...long considered to be healthier than the average American [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > >> >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti > >> >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario > The Mediterranean diet is more tthan just garlic...high in olive oil, > fish...long considered to be healthier than the average American > diet., which is heavy on red meat, fats, refined foods......ditto > Asian diet is healthier - high in rice, fish....not just ginger. .too > many other factors to point to just one aspect such as garlic or > ginger.... The other components you have eluded to are high in omega 3-6-9 which is also part of the solution... Thanks... > >One of the best 'anti-parastic' herbal treatments is 'garlic'...at $ > >2,00 a lb very inexpensive....the second possibly ginger.... [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > >> >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti > >> >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario Drugs for diseases and garlic. Some drugs that 'treat' symptoms, are not know why they work...however there is some evidence to suggest that many of these drugs have various effects and some are 'anti-parasitic'...although it is not stated... Garlic... Here is an interesting observation regarding garlic. It is noted that some companies that manufacture probiotic pills are using special pill covers to ensure that the friendly bacteria makes it through the stomach... Well the same can be said about a variety of anti-parasitic herbs...like garlic... Cutting the garlic too fine, will not allow it to pass to the lower digestive tract... SUGGSTION: Use a variety of sized garlic pieces including full and half-cloves to allow the garlic to pass through the entire system...? Try it and let us know of your observations... Jan, Susan Thank you both for good wishes. I stand by my theory, no matter what. I only wish Dr. Crohn was here, he may have believed it. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, or anything BUT STIMULANTS. I question WHY such a hidden cause for so awful an illness. No answer. I have seen it over and over, and can predict much of it happening. Hope you are better Susan, as even just knowing a little about it helps, whether believed or not. Incidentally, I take no medication for the gas etc. applesauce, dates, chocolate syrup, skim milk and foods are very good for settling the stomach., I have found. Liable to develop diabetes, though, with chocolate and the foods may vary from person to person. And blueberries with skim unsweeetened yogurt is luscious. Different symptoms require different solutions, and by the time it is realized there is another problem, some damage has been done. It is an illness NO ONE should have. I am beginning to pray to the G-d of Israel,as usual but now include Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Hail Mary, and Mohammed, that's how extreme I am but NO ONE is listening. And Jan, as you know now, it is best to walk away from a problem sometimes, and come back refreshed to solve it. > > Well, as most on this group know, I have a different version of the cause > > of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thank You > > Giil > Jan, Susan > > I am beginning to pray to the G-d of Israel,as usual but > now include Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Hail Mary, and Mohammed, that's how > extreme I am but NO ONE is listening. Psalms states that no one listens to a fool and there is only one God. Vernon, if you are saying I am a fool, okay, don't listen. What was meant was all those named are prophets of the one G-d for all of us. Maybe they will intercept for crohns, but their ability seems limited. And guess, Christian Scientists may be free of drugs, but their friends or family may not. Think what you like, there is no logic, no science, nothing understandable about the theory, but it is FACT and the damage is there and no has come up with a better answer, just as Dr. Crohn could not because of its securely hidden cause. But some believe it and used it and benefitted. As for Ken, his recommending vitamins is helpful in the way that adjusting and giving the body extra care can alleviate the symptoms and maybe cure some, but I think they only move on to another part of the body. Gail > > Jan, Susan > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Psalms states that no one listens to a fool and there is only one God. "only wish Dr. Crohn was here, he may have believed it" "may" in this case is a real, REAL stretch of the imagination. your therory, gail, has to to with something like telepathy, while under a stimulant drug. i fail to see the relevancy between dr crohn's work and your theory. have you read dr crohn's work? if have. jeff > Jan, Susan > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> > Thank You >> > Giil Jeff, Have you ever tried to relate at all to the theory. I know nothing about telepathy. Whatever takes place, I cannot explain, except just to confuse the world, this is the only mind/body, literally illness that is known. Suggestions can be called a mind factor in some illnesses, but crohns has a mind connection that is automatic and swift or slow depending on the relationship, it sometimes takes a few weeks to hit, the mind is the ultimate deciding role and some people are not susceptible. The variations are so vast, but the cause can only be one factor. STIMULANTS, STIMULANTS. AND AGAIN STIMULANTS. NOTHING ELSE. Gail > "only wish Dr. Crohn was here, he may have believed it" > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > >> > Thank You > >> > Giil Olive oil helps...but garlic is a key component of that mediterrean diet and its ability to deal with bacteria...the russian penecilin... Here is a statement... -------------- After suffering with IBS for many, many years, I decided to do my own research, and it was not until I stumbled upon the word 'parasites' did my research bear fruit.... Herbal anti-parasitic drugs are more effective than pharamaceutical anti-biotics...why ? I don't know probably because herbal products are wide spectrum.... With the family business involving herbal/vitamin products, I was aware of the need for vitamins, minerals, etc...but not anti-parasitic formulas...i did not do my homework.. Anyway on trying these products there was improvement...trying simple garlic was very, very effective, but not the solution.. Most ant-parasitic programs involve more than merely one product...look it up yourself... But the key word for computer research is 'parasites'.... Good Luck ! ----------------------------- One of the problems with our system, a system that profits from disease, and treating symptoms and not the core problem is that it is really difficult to get the right answer unless you ask the right question...and many don't want to give you the right answer in just one visit....do yuo know how many millions of patients suffer from 'parasitic' infections...millions, and why would you want a simple solution to that whole problem...? A conspiracy....no merely politics...power and politics...and money....! Caesar J. B. Squitti Thanks for the link: Below is what one link suggests is the problem.. My work in the area of paradoxical effects of corrupted cells, (in the area of social programs ie sexual predators in Childrens Aid or Women Centers, ) on a macro level, something that has gone unnoticed for a long time, suggests that in fact there may be a connection to that of 'cells that are suppose to decompose food' ie the flora, being corrupted by bad bacteria that attack everything instead of selectively.....this is "the body's immune system reacts abnormally in people with Crohn's disease" Here is the corruption of cells..... again if you can move beyond the concrete model of what we know and process it n a (on a macro level compare this to cult-feminists, damaged cells, who attack the community, through deceptive social programs and half-truths, promoting death itself on the unborn child (the new cell)...promoting chaos and death...? ) Apply this same model to the body....on a micro level...! Caesar J. B. Squitti ---------------------------- What causes Crohn's disease? "Several theories exist about what causes Crohn's disease, but none have been proven. The human immune system is made from cells and different proteins that protect people from infection. The most popular theory is that the body's immune system reacts abnormally in people with Crohn's disease, mistaking bacteria, foods, and other substances for being foreign. The immune system's response is to attack these "invaders." During this process, white blood cells accumulate in the lining of the intestines, producing chronic inflammation, which leads to ulcerations and bowel injury. Scientists do not know if the abnormality in the functioning of the immune system in people with Crohn's disease is a cause, or a result, of the disease. Research shows that the inflammation seen in the GI tract of people with Crohn's disease involves several factors: the genes the patient has inherited, the immune system itself, and the environment. Foreign substances, also referred to as antigens, are found in the environment. One possible cause for inflammation may be the body's reaction to these antigens, or that the antigens themselves are the cause for the inflammation. Some scientists think that a protein produced by the immune system, called anti-tumor necrosis factor (TNF), may be a possible cause for the inflammation associated with Crohn's disease." ------------------------------- > > Well, as most on this group know, I have a different version of the cause > > of [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > >> > Caesar J. B. Squitti > >> > Thunder Bay, Ontario > Well, as most on this group know, I have a different version of the cause > of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Thank You > Gail Hi Gail, how are you doing? I hope you are well. Still believe that theory of yours huh? Well that's ok, I just hope you are not emailing newbie's about it still. You remember you kind of freaked me out with your theory when I was a newbie but that's ok. I understand you a lot better now since we spoke esp. I wish you only the best. UM MOM Susan There are many causes for a set of symptoms...what we call a disease....including the reality that a disease does not have to be caused by merely one core problem....but a combination of factors that allow the symptoms to develop....? Caesar J. B. Squitti > Well, as most on this group know, I have a different version of the cause of > crohns and Ulcerative Colitis and it has NOTHING to do with bacteria. My [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > > Caesar J. B. Squitti > > > Thunder Bay, Ontario Incidentally, Jeff, I do have Dr. Crohns papers, if you can understand them, you are a better man than I. Tell me, please, do you know anyone close to you in mind, that is on a stimulant. Please don't say many people, narrow it down to one or two you are familiar with. Many times, the problems and pain arise when one is thinking of th person on the stimulants. With your good grasp of words, if you can believe the theory, I think I would have it made. There have been some, but they will not speak up. especially if it involves marijuana. Gail > Well common sense would logically suggest that this disease and other > > similar labeled diseases, ie IBS, are caused by bacteria or parasites. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Caesar J. B. Squitti > > Thunder Bay, Ontario Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a huge say in what they are taught and the last thing they want is a simple cure! You have people in the pharmaceutical companies making more in one year than the President of the United States would make in 80 years. They are not about to let that kind of money just disappear for a simple cure! They also have great influence on where the research money goes....Very little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from diseases. Research with vitamins and minerals and such have only ever gotten a pittance of the research money . It's all about the money!! > Cause and cure of some diseases ! > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Caesar J. B. Squitti > Thunder Bay, Ontario Of course a doctor may have a differing opinion to a (not so knowledgeable "Usana Associate" such as yourself. Learn more about Ken here: http://ethicscommittee.ca/crohns-colitis/article.php?id=289466&group=alt.support .crohns-colitis John > Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most > only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a huge [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >> Cause and cure of some diseases ! > Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most > only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a huge [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > years. They are not about to let that kind of money just disappear for a > simple cure! So where are all those "simple cures" that alternative medicine can supposedly come up with? Name a disease curable by the alties that reality-based medicine cannot treat. > They also have great influence on where the research money goes....Very > little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from diseases. Nonsense. Much research gets done on disease prevention. Take the studies done of aspirin to prevent heart attack and stroke for example. And nobody is making a huge profit off the results of this research, either. Store brand aspirin can be bought for 2c per tablet or less, and the patent on the drug ran out a century ago. Oh, and who do you think is funding and researching the preventive effects of nutrients? Hint, it's not Hulda Clark or Kevin Trudeau. It's not even big corporations like GNC and HerbalLife. > Research with vitamins and minerals and such have only ever gotten a > pittance > of the research money . > It's all about the money!! The U.S. Government has lots of money budgeted specifically for research in alternative medicine. Much of this grant money goes unclaimed. If the research they have funded is any indication, one does not need to be an esteemed scientist to get a grant, nor does the topic of research need much scientific plausibility. My guess is the reason that all those alties who are whining that "they" are controlling all the research money do not apply for these NCCAM grants is the NIH rule that grantees must publish all their data regardless of the outcome of the experiment. Quacks who are making lots of money selling stuff that's not proven have a lot to lose if the research proves their products bogus.  Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ A recent CBC investigative report revealed that MOST ALL research is directed at treating the disease, not preventing it...and most is along the lines of pharmaceutical chemicals, that is where the profit is... Would you discover 'water' to treat thirst....problem today is that soo much of the water is polluted....chemically, and must be cleaned...the same with most diseases.... Under our current profit motivated 'disease treatment' systems....prevention is penalized... How many doctors suggest eating some garlic....too simple ! Profit is now moving into the herbal 'business' as well... Profit motivation in Ford Cars and Trucks is a good thing....profit motivation in 'disease treatment'...can and has created problems.... Caesar J.B. Squitti > > Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most > > only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a huge [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > http://www.skeptic.com/ > http://www.csicop.org/ are you advocating that we treat where the profit is not? the sky is blue, so what does that explain caesar? so tell me caesar, how are you going to change the whole social economical structure of our society? geez, let's all do things for NO PROFIT, right? and also, btw, you theorize that treating diseases and preventing them are in conflict. why is that so? who said that? kind of hard to figure out prevents when you don't know the root cause and because you don't know the root cause it is difficult at best, to treat the disease. hey caesar, be sure, no matter what you do for a living, turn your pay check down every week, okay? it's evil if you don't, right? please, get real! jeff >A recent CBC investigative report revealed that MOST ALL research is > directed at treating the disease, not preventing it...and most is along [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] >> http://www.skeptic.com/ >> http://www.csicop.org/ >> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most >> only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a huge [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > supposedly come up with? Name a disease curable by the alties that > reality-based medicine cannot treat. Note that *twisting* from dishonest, Rich Shewmaker. >> They also have great influence on where the research money goes....Very >> little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from diseases. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Clark or Kevin Trudeau. It's not even big corporations like GNC and > HerbalLife. Poor, Rich, he's getting as bad as his buddies, can't post without lying. http://www.gordonresearch.com/answers/the_aspirin_myth.html http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_12_59/ai_n15980914 Consumer-directed pricing: five dollars for an aspirin http://www.datamonitor.com/~703e8d081e08453fb9cdc6309f372ff1~/Products/Free/Comp anyReport/CSHC1267/020CSHC1267.htm >> Research with vitamins and minerals and such have only ever gotten a >> pittance >> of the research money . >> It's all about the money!! > > [snip guess and proven lying websites + spam] quack > --Rich >>> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most >>> only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > http://www.gordonresearch.com/answers/the_aspirin_myth.html This is an opinion article. My opinion, based on much peer-reviewed research, differs from yours and from that of Gordon. That is why you call it a "lie." > http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_12_59/ai_n15980914 > > Consumer-directed pricing: five dollars for an aspirin You too, can buy aspirin at less than two cents per tablet. The "five dollar" aspirin refers to medication dispensed in a healthcare setting. It's also a myth, by the way. I looked up the patient charge for an aspirin in our hospital computer system. It's $1.78. While that's admittedly a lot more than the 2c cost of the pill, you have to take into account the cost of administering the medication. To dispense an aspirin, the nurse must assess the patient's need for the medication, then check to assure that there is a valid physician's order for aspirin, that there is no aspirin allergy, and that sufficient time has passed since the last administration of the drug. Then he must sign the drug out of whatever system the hospital pharmacy has for tracking patient charges, carry the aspirin to the patient, provide water, and wait with the patient to assure that the aspirin was actually swallowed. Then the nurse must document that process in the "Medication Administration Record," and in the nursing progress notes. Later, the nurse must reassess the patient, and document the result of the medication. Considering that nursing time costs the hospital $30 to $50 per hour, they are probably losing money on that $1.78 charge. > http://www.datamonitor.com/~703e8d081e08453fb9cdc6309f372ff1~/Products/Free/Comp anyReport/CSHC1267/020CSHC1267.htm I have no idea what this "Bayer: PharmaVitae Profile 2005" is supposed to prove. >>> Research with vitamins and minerals and such have only ever gotten a >>> pittance >>> of the research money . >>> It's all about the money!! >> >> [snip guess and proven lying websites + spam] So what do YOU think is the reason that alties don't snatch up all that free money? Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ >>>> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most >>>> only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Note that *twisting* from dishonest, Rich Shewmaker. Note Rich did not comment. That's because he knows he did EXACTLY that. >>>> They also have great influence on where the research money goes....Very >>>> little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from diseases. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > research, differs from yours and from that of Gordon. That is why you call > it a "lie." Ooopsey, where is the word *opinion in the above? NO where. So, now, in FACT, Rich IS lying. >> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_12_59/ai_n15980914 >> >> Consumer-directed pricing: five dollars for an aspirin > > You too, can buy aspirin at less than two cents per tablet. Didn't say one couldn't. The "five dollar" aspirin refers to medication dispensed in a healthcare setting. It's > also a myth, by the way. No, that's what you say. I looked up the patient charge for an aspirin in > our hospital computer system. It's $1.78. While that's admittedly a lot > more than the 2c cost of the pill, you have to take into account the cost [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of the medication. Considering that nursing time costs the hospital $30 to > $50 per hour, they are probably losing money on that $1.78 charge. The hospital your work at is not the only hospital. >> http://www.datamonitor.com/~703e8d081e08453fb9cdc6309f372ff1~/Products/Free/Comp anyReport/CSHC1267/020CSHC1267.htm > > I have no idea what this "Bayer: PharmaVitae Profile 2005" is supposed to > prove. Take a stab. >>>> Research with vitamins and minerals and such have only ever gotten a >>>> pittance [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So what do YOU think is the reason that alties don't snatch up all that > free money? There are no such things as alties... > --Rich >>>>> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because most >>>>> only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies have a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > That's because he knows he did EXACTLY that. Nope, it just didn't need comment, because only your twisted thought processes would see any twist in my question. It's pretty straightforward. Ken is claiming that the pharmaceutical companies are suppressing "simple cures" by manipulating the education of doctors. I'm just asking what those simple cures are. >>>>> They also have great influence on where the research money >>>>> goes....Very little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > So, now, in FACT, Rich IS lying. AhHA! So THAT's why you can't tell an opinion from a lie. You are too literal and concrete thinking to recognize an opinion unless it actually CONTAINS the word "opinion." I've wondered for a few years why you didn't know the difference. >>> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_12_59/ai_n15980914 >>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > There are no such things as alties... Riiiight. Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ >>>>>> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because >>>>>> most only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > cures" by manipulating the education of doctors. I'm just asking what > those simple cures are. Nope, you didn't comment the first time, until I mentioned it. Now, you are insulting because, I tell it exactly like it is. You did not ask *just* what those simple cures were. You added words that Ken did NOT in any way imply. You slammed alternative medicine, which is your purpose for being on this newsgroup. You also made your comments because Ken was 100% dead on. >>>>>> They also have great influence on where the research money >>>>>> goes....Very little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > CONTAINS the word "opinion." I've wondered for a few years why you didn't > know the difference. L O L!!! Much research gets done on disease prevention. That's an opinion? Take the studies done of aspirin to prevent heart attack and stroke for example. And nobody is making a huge profit off the results of this research, either. Store brand aspirin can be bought for 2c per tablet or less, and the patent on the drug ran out a century ago. That's an opinion? >>>> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_12_59/ai_n15980914 >>>> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Riiiight. >>>>>>> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because >>>>>>> most only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > were. You added words that Ken > did NOT in any way imply. Ken most certainly did imply that alternative medicine has "simple cures" that are being suppressed. > You slammed alternative medicine, which is your purpose for being on this > newsgroup. You also made your comments because Ken was 100% dead on. Dead on? You know this? Then perhaps YOU can tell me what those "simple cures" are. >>>>>>> They also have great influence on where the research money >>>>>>> goes....Very little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > That's an opinion? No, it's a fact. > Take the studies done of aspirin to prevent heart attack and stroke for > example. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's an opinion? No, it's a fact. >>>>> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_12_59/ai_n15980914 >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> >> Riiiight. Signature--Rich Recommended websites: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/ >>>>>>>> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because >>>>>>>> most only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Ken most certainly did imply that alternative medicine has "simple cures" > that are being suppressed. Not is the above post, he did not. >> You slammed alternative medicine, which is your purpose for being on >> this >> newsgroup. You also made your comments because Ken was 100% dead on. > > Dead on? Yes. You know this? Yes. If you weren't so brain washed, you would know it also. Then perhaps YOU can tell me what those "simple cures" are. Perhaps YOU can *Put up or shut up* >>>>>>>> They also have great influence on where the research money >>>>>>>> goes....Very little has ever gone into any kind of prevention from [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > No, it's a fact. AhHA! So that's Why YOU keep REPEATING that same LIE! >> Take the studies done of aspirin to prevent heart attack and stroke for >> example. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No, it's a fact. AhHA! Thanks for proving you are a REPEATED LIAR! >>>>>> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3257/is_12_59/ai_n15980914 >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >>> >>> Riiiight. >>>>>>>>> Well the reason doctors aren't going to know about it..is because >>>>>>>>> most only know what they are taught . The pharmaceutical companies [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > AhHA! So that's Why YOU keep REPEATING that same LIE! And what lie might that be Jan? Google Scholar: Results 1 - 10 of about 1,260,000 for prevention >>> Take the studies done of aspirin to prevent heart attack and stroke for >>> example. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > AhHA! Thanks for proving you are a REPEATED LIAR! And what's the lie here? That you can buy asipirin for two cents a tablet? It seems you are the liar here, Jan. >>>>> You have people in the pharmaceutical companies making >>>>> more in one year than the President of the United States would make in >>>>> 80 years. Well, in all fairness, they are all considerably more intelligent than the current occupant is... oh yeah! now that is a true statement. nice to know that the dumb a.s won't be in charge of everything!, hee, hee. jeff >>>>>> You have people in the pharmaceutical companies making >>>>>> more in one year than the President of the United States would make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well, in all fairness, they are all considerably more intelligent than > the current occupant is... > The U.S. Government has lots of money budgeted specifically for research in > alternative medicine. Much of this grant money goes unclaimed. If the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > --Rich First of all, I don't sell any product for profit and am just as disgusted by those bastardizing authentic alternative health/medicine by offering a 'cure-all' for the 'catch-all' CDC catagory known as 'AIDS' or for any one cure for any illness or set of related symptoms for that matter. This disconnects the alternative THEORIES of diagnosis [philosophy] from the alternative THERAPIES [practise] of authentic alternative health/medicine. It's paradigm not just a protocol. The 'one-cause, one-course/cure' drug-based conventional medical model is in many ways uncomplementary to the 'many-causes, many-courses/cures' approach of authentic alternative health/medicine. That being said, there are real conflicts in research methodologies and ideologies which prevent our progress in the knowledge about health and wellness in many areas of research. I am very familiar with NCCAM [National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine-- emphasis primarily on the *complementary* meaning in complement with the dominant scientific and 'one-cause, one-course' conventional medical model] having spoken with many of it's national advisory board, which is made up of leaders in Alternative Medicine, directors of research at major Naturopathic, Chiropractic, etc. institutions in the US. And I have communicated with a number of NCCAM's staff, including their MD director, with whom the NCCAM advisory board-- emphasis on advise and not consent-- have told me they agree that these conflicts involve the medical profession under the guise of it's director, imposing their conventional 'one-cause, one-course' model upon the alternative, uncomplementary 'many-causes, many-courses' model in terms of clinical markers or endpoints, dis-ease classification and controls. Most of the basic research on unpatentable natural substances will have no profit motive. Unfortunately much of the research done in this area has seperated out the micro level, seperating out certain properties within the substance rather than in it's natural state or looking at one modality at a time rather than viewing health/wellness from the macro, multi-factorial model. --outreaching many members of the White House Commission on AIDS and the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine or NCCAM, half of whose national advisory board disagrees with it's MD director as to these common conflicts in research methodologies and ideologies affecting our progress in the knowledge about health in many different areas. --submitted abstract to the first joint conference between CATIE and the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine, whereupon the president of the College informed me one of the reasons they withdrew their participation in that historic conference on AIDS Alternatives was the disconnection of the alternative theories of diagnosis from the alternative therapies of treatment in what together comprise authentic Alternative Medicine-- demonstrated by CATIE's rejection of my abstract addressing the connection between Dissident Scientific and Alternative Medicine approaches to what is called 'HIV/AIDS.' --submitted abstract and skills building workshop proposals to the XIV Intl AIDS Conference in Barcelona, Spain and encouraged Dissidents and Alternative Medicine advocates around the world to submit as well. Eventually, when we were banned as usual, participated in promotional activities for the International AIDS Reappraisalist Meeting across the avenue attracting some 500 participants sponsored by the Spanish Association of Complementary and Alternative Medicine, Ecologia Magazine and The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis. Later, when paid AIDS Industry activists staged protests shouting down HHS Tommy Thompson and other officials and audits of federal funding of these organizations were announced, they decried censorship while knowingly censoring Dissident Scientists, Alternative Medicine Physicians, Consumers and Advocates who were not even allowed in the building. --2003 I lobbied for passage of SB 907, licensing Naturopathic Doctors in California with Republicans and Chiropractors. Also lobbied many state Health and Human Services Departments Medicaid program to participate in a two-year demonstration project using alternative billing codes[ABCs] for coding alternative health care, comparing cost effectiveness and clinical outcomes, to begin to introduce a model of competition in our current conventional medical monopoly. READ MORE OF KELLY JON LANDIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE DISSENTING SCIENTIFIC AND ALTERNATIVE HEALTH CARE FREEDOM MOVEMENT: ...including testifying before a joint legislative hearing in Sacramento, CA representing the Group for the Scientific Reappriasal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis and arranging for another representative of The Group to provide testimony to the White House Commission on CAM and many other organizations and individuals. 'NATURAL' ALLIES to AIDS DISSIDENCE http://groups.msn.com/AIDSMythExposed/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID _Message=1582&LastModified=4675445024672392681 Healthfully and Hopefully, Kelly Jon Landis 1317 Euclid St., #9 Santa Monica, CA 90404 kjlandis@alumni.usc.edu 310-663-3895 [cell] <snip Rich's socalled "anti-quack" pro-pharma propaganda sites which list as "quack" sites even well-respected institutions, according to NCCAM, which funds research through them, including Bastyr [Naturopathic] University in Seattle and the accrediting association of Naturopathic Doctors or NDs in the US, who are licensed in 14 states as primary care providers> >> The U.S. Government has lots of money budgeted specifically for research in >> alternative medicine. Much of this grant money goes unclaimed. Actually, as a percentage of the NIH budget, the total amount is relatively low. I'm curious where you got the information contained in the last comment? Mr. Landis then goes on to articulate some interesting perspectives about NCCAM that I don't entirely disagree with. They do have an increasingly allopathic and reductionist approach toward the clinical trials they want to fund. This arises in part from the constraints of clinical trial design. However, within that context, I think a lot can be done. As to Mr. Landis's comments regarding the role of HIV in AIDS, he makes some important points insofar as there is more to AIDS than just the notion that HIV infects T cells and they die. And thus there are many more therapeutic implications beyond antiretroviral therapy. Still, HIV exists and is the proximate cause of that loss of T cells. Clearly, when antiretroviral therapy brings down viral load substantially and CD4+ counts rise, there is a concomitant reduction in mortality and morbidity that cannot be dismissed except by the most brain dead denialists. This does not obviate the many CAM approaches that can a) slow disease progression (e.g., even a simple multivitamin can reduce progression rates by 30% according to well-controlled studies in Tanzania and Thailand); b) address the various components of HIV disease from GI disturbances to neurological, endocrine and redox status effects; and c) offset or minimize side effects of ARV, such as mitochondrial toxicity, neuropathy, aspects of lipodystrophy and so forth. It is a pity that Mr. Landis still clings to the discredited and absurd notion that HIV doesn't cause AIDS...it deflects from a more nuanced and important discussion of HOW it causes AIDS and what we can do to thwart that process. George M. Carter >Rich wrote: > >> The U.S. Government has lots of money budgeted >> specifically for research in alternative >> medicine. >George wrote: > >> Actually, as a percentage of the NIH budget, >> the total amount is relatively low. Pittance however you cut it, though the small amount was increased a few years ago, though the conflicts remain and the strings put on those funds make it difficult for authentic Alternative [Uncomplementary] Medicine to participate while remaining true to their own ideological understanding of proper scientific methodological standards. >Rich wrote: > >> Much of this grant money goes unclaimed. >George wrote: > >> I'm curious where you got the information >> contained in the last comment? He's right. Notice the irony or hypocracy in saying, as Rich does, on the one hand, Alternative Medicine is all quackery, and then saying they reject money being offered. Hmmm... maybe they have higher standards than to make a quick buck. >George wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> increasingly allopathic and reductionist >> approach toward the clinical trials they want >> to fund. This arises in part from the >> constraints of clinical trial design. That's all NCCAM has ever promised; a reductionist allopathic 'one-cause, one-course' short-sighted under-view obstructing any holistic, 'many-causes, many-courses' approach or perspective. NCCAM replaced the old Office of Alternative Medicine and haven't been around for that long remember. >George wrote: > >> However, within that context, I think a lot can >> be done. Yes, we could COMPARE non-toxic immune enhancing therapies such as amino acid and anti-oxidant formularies including L-Carnitine, NAC, ALA, L-Glutamine, etc. with toxic 'ARV' drug cocktails. And even though we might not agree on clinical markers of CD4 T-Cell counts or PCR "Viral Load" counts could we agree that extended life was a valid clinical endpoint? AIDS Apologists like George would say hard science such as this would be unethical even if it would solve the controversy over the efficacy of the drugs and hundreds of thousands of persons who have access and are "clincally eligible" in the West [according to a recent report of the American Academy of HIV Medicine] are willfully refusing those "life-saving" drugs today, many of whom would conceivably give consent to participate in such a study. >George wrote: > >> As to Mr. Landis's comments regarding the role >> of HIV in AIDS, he makes some important points >> insofar as there is more to AIDS than just >> the notion that HIV infects T cells and they >> die. And thus there are many more therapeutic >> implications beyond antiretroviral therapy. I never made any such statement. When will AIDS Apologists stop co-opting words like holistic to mean combining immune-suppressing chemo-coctails WITH immune-enhancing nutrition, nutritional supplements or other helpful-- and not harmful-- modalities? One cancels out the other. They just don't get it. Also, I think I clearly pointed out that the conflict over conventional disease classification is a major issue in establishing scientifically-based research methodologies for AM [Alternative Medicine which is not the same as CM or "Complementary Medicine" and the two cannot be combined in one term coined by Conventional Medicine as "CAM"]. Alternative Medicine treats the patient, all very unique and individual, and they treat them holistically, they do not treat diseases, or at least they should not if they are claiming to represent authentic Alternative Medicine. Unfortunately for the progress of knowledge within the health science, when an alternative, competing paradigm or protocol is viewed askance by those who cannot see any other way and cannot even allow for the possibility their own precious paradigm or standards for judging other approaches might be short-sighted, there will not be a resolution. Humility is required and only one entity is in a position of power such to require humility; that being the conventional, pharmaceutically-based medical model. Alternative Medicine has been compromised too much already and Conventional Medicine not nearly enough. >George: > >> Still, HIV exists and is the proximate cause >> of that loss of T cells. Clearly, when >> antiretroviral therapy brings down viral load >> substantially and CD4+ counts rise, there is a >> concomitant reduction in mortality and >> morbidity that cannot be dismissed except by >> the most brain dead denialists. Yes, still you and the dominant scientific and conventional medical model can't be wrong and the truth is 'undeniable' to you AIDS Apologists. This does not obviate the many CAM approaches that can... [snip George's and Conventional Medicine's short-sighted view and listing of what the research they won't support even a small percentage of funding for-- based on an authentic alternative paradigm and protocol-- would tell us if it were conducted and completed. Afterall, they know it all, just ask em, they'll tell ya. [...] >George wrote: > >> It is a pity that Mr. Landis still clings to >> the discredited and absurd notion that HIV >> doesn't cause AIDS...it deflects from a more >> nuanced and important discussion of HOW it >> causes AIDS and what we can do to thwart that >> process. You know what really is a pity? That Mr. [George] Carter can't humble himself to allow for the possibility that he and dominant scientific and conventional medical model MIGHT BE WRONG! And the AIDS Apologists have had it their way for 20 years and 20 billion dollars and counting and haven't explained much of how the alleged 'HIV' can cause the illnesses attributed to 'AIDS.' So, George, how about redirecting even .1% of funds currently spent on 'HIV/AIDS' research to the opposing position or paradigm? Nah, complete waste of time he says. == == BEYOND FLAT EARTH MEDICINE How popular consensus and the medical establishment have often stubbornly clung to the wrong ideas, unable to think outside the box. When medically 'correct' wasn't always. A Brief History of Mismanaged Epidemics [Disease]---[Popular Consensus]---[Actual Cause] Scurvy------Contagious---Malnutrition: Vitamin C deficiency Beri-beri---Contagious---Malnutrition: Thiamin deficiency Maternal Fever---Non-contagious---Contagious: Unsanitary doctor practices Influenza---Bacteria---Virus Pellagra----Contagious---Malnutrition: Niacin deficiency SMON(1950s-70s, Japan)---New Virus---Iatrogenic: Pharmaceutically induced In science as in the law, the affirmative statement or theory bares the burden of proof for establishing itself. Those who critique it's establishment in fact, are not required to reprove or replace another theory of it's aetiology, especially when immune dysfunction has a multi-factorially influenced set of unrelated conditions, or according to Alternative Medicine, all illness/wellness is on a continuum and the result of immune sufficiency or deficiency. Alternative Medicine has long questioned the virus/germ mode or 'one-cause, one-course' drug-based model or theory of illness which is confirmed by the work of hundreds of AIDS Dissident Scientists, including Nobel Laureates, Members of the National Academy of Sciences and pioneers in their fields. Many often disconnect the alternative theories of diagnosis[PHILOSOPHY] from the alternative therapies of treatment [PRACTISE]-- in how Alternative Medicine differentially diagnoses the individual and treats using a holistic, multi-factorial or 'many-causes, many-courses' approache to illness. They treat the underlying causes of symptoms, not diagnosing/treating diseases and certainly not diagnosing/treating syndromes, which are a 'catch-all' of redefined classifications or catagories of conditions. And therefore, Alternative Medicine does not generally recognize conventional disease classifications. "For disease, all experience shows, are adjectives, not noun substantives." "There are no specific diseases: there are [only] specific disease conditions [or states of dis-ease]." Florence Nightingale (Nursing Pioneer, Disease Dissident) == V I R U S M Y T H [Largest AIDS Forum on Delphi] http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous >>Rich wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >participate while remaining true to their own ideological understanding of >proper scientific methodological standards. Competition is fierce--and I think there are issues with the way reviewers are selected. My organization had a serious problem with one reviewer who wrote an absolute PHARMA-sponsored screed against a study we proposed for cholesterol management. Yes, I agree--a miserable pittance of a budget. It's a start though. >>Rich wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Medicine is all quackery, and then saying they reject money being offered. >Hmmm... maybe they have higher standards than to make a quick buck. "Alternative Medicine" as a term is dismal. But it is not all quackery. >>George wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >many-courses' approach or perspective. NCCAM replaced the old Office of >Alternative Medicine and haven't been around for that long remember. I know--I was there when OAM started. There is a methodology of clinical trials design that has a lot of flexibility within its framework. But to provide good evidence, one needs to have first the question that one wishes to answer. Then an appropriate and rigorous methodology to answer that question. "Many-causes, many-courses" however is too vague. >>George wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >acid and anti-oxidant formularies including L-Carnitine, NAC, ALA, >L-Glutamine, etc. with toxic 'ARV' drug cocktails. Yes. Some of those studies have been done. The Herzenbergs and Wulf Droge have looked at NAC; acetylcarnitine showed benefit at 3 grams per day for peripheral neuropathy related to nukes. Lower doses didn't work as well, bu in the context of Kaiser's antioxidant protocol, they saw a statistically significant increase in CD4 count. Glutamine has been shown beneficial in offsetting protease inhibitor-related diarrhea. I think some study of the sort you propose could happen. What is the question? Effect on CD4 count? A clinical endpoint? Death or disease? If the latter, it would require a fairly large cohort of people and be pretty costly. Is the proposed intervention a combination approach? >And even though we >might not agree on clinical markers of CD4 T-Cell counts or PCR "Viral >Load" counts could we agree that extended life was a valid clinical >endpoint? Absolutely. >AIDS Apologists like George would say hard science such as this >would be unethical even if it would solve the controversy over the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"life-saving" drugs today, many of whom would conceivably give consent to >participate in such a study. AIDS denialists like you don't have a clue about clinical trial design it would seem. But no, you are wrong. I think a study could be done for individuals with a higher CD4 count with documented HIV infection. See, if you're a denialist and say HIV doesn't matter or T cell counts are somehow irrelevant, then we can't have a sensible conversation. >>George wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >WITH immune-enhancing nutrition, nutritional supplements or other >helpful-- and not harmful-- modalities? One cancels out the other. Quite to the contrary. As I indicated above, I think there is a very clearly defined population of infected individuals who can benefit from methods to slow disease progression. Indeed, as I've mentioned before, a simple multivitamin has been shown in a pretty rigorous (double-blind, placebo-controlled) study in Tanzania to slow progression by 30%. A Thai study among people with AIDS (low CD4 count) showed a significant reduction in morbidity and mortality. >They >just don't get it. No. You don't. You can't HAVE this conversation sensibly if you insist on asserting that HIV is harmless or nonexistent. >Also, I think I clearly pointed out that the conflict >over conventional disease classification is a major issue in establishing >scientifically-based research methodologies for AM [Alternative Medicine >which is not the same as CM or "Complementary Medicine" and the two cannot >be combined in one term coined by Conventional Medicine as "CAM"]. Sure they can. CAM reflects that there are those who use interventions outside the local predominant paradigm (in the US, allopathy) which is "alternative" versus "complementary" which means using some "alternative" approaches as an adjunct to allopathic. Integrative is a stronger term that implies a benefit from an approach that utilizes the best methodologies to manage disease or injury. Traditional medicine is what a vast amount of the planet's population must rely upon, including indigenous medicine from China, Japan, India, Tibet, many African nations and the Americas (in short, pretty much everywhere). >Alternative Medicine treats the patient, all very unique and individual, >and they treat them holistically, they do not treat diseases, or at least >they should not if they are claiming to represent authentic Alternative >Medicine. LOL. That's incorrect. AUTHENTIC MEDICINE should indeed be about the health of the patient. It very rarely is in almost ANY tradition I've seen. There are SOME good practitioners who adhere to the principles of the practice they are in and help to manage the patient in a more integrative and complete way. Generally, though, this only works if the patient is wealthy. snipped rhetoric. >>George: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Yes, still you and the dominant scientific and conventional medical model >can't be wrong and the truth is 'undeniable' to you AIDS Apologists. I do not apologize for AIDS. I'd rather fight it. And, like smallpox or the Bubonic Plague, science happens to offer one bit of the truth quite starkly with regard to the existence and role of HIV. You, as a denialist, would rather keep your head up your a.s. I know a LOT of traditional healers all aroudn the world who have little trouble accepting the reality of this scientific finding or using western medical science and approaches. The legitimate ones at any rate. Those are the practitioners that I respect--as much as the MD allopaths here that are able to see there ARE benefits to CAM approaches and work with their patients abilities, knowledge, needs and health concerns. >This does not obviate the many CAM approaches that can... [snip George's >and Conventional Medicine's short-sighted view and listing of what the >research they won't support even a small percentage of funding for-- based >on an authentic alternative paradigm and protocol-- would tell us if it >were conducted and completed. Afterall, they know it all, just ask em, >they'll tell ya. Have no idea what you're on about here... >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >himself to allow for the possibility that he and dominant scientific and >conventional medical model MIGHT BE WRONG! Oh f.ck you. I did that 16 years ago. I looked at the question of HIV's role. And I am STILL looking at that question. But I have NO doubt that HIV exists and is what causes CD4 counts (T cells) to plummet to zero in most infected individuals. And I have NO doubt that there are many ways to thwart this progression. Snipped the rest of the crap that proves nothing. Indeed, the denialists have come up with all sorts of ridiculous handwaving nonsense that has had not one shred of evidence to support it, the most egregiously idiotic being the "drugs cause AIDS" notion of Duesberg. The more respectable folks that question the role that I think may have a more intriguing idea are those who posit "co-factors", however there is no need for syphilis or mycoplasma infections to be present for HIV to result in depletion of CD4 counts. However, as co-infections, they and other infections like parasitic infections clearly can play a role. As can malnutrition. Intervening to treat those conditions can alleviate that accelerating pressure--but it doesn't remove HIV's foot from the gas pedal of rapid CD4 decline. George M. Carter >>George wrote: >> >>> However, within that context, I think a lot >>> can be done. >Kelly wrote: > > Yes, we could COMPARE non-toxic immune enhancing > therapies such as amino acid and anti-oxidant > formularies including L-Carnitine, NAC, ALA, > L-Glutamine, etc. WITH toxic 'ARV' drugs. >>George wrote: >> >>> Yes. Some of those studies have been done. The >>> Herzenbergs and Wulf Droge have looked at NAC; >>> acetylcarnitine showed benefit at 3 grams per >>> day for peripheral neuropathy related to >>> nukes. No they have not, Mr. Carter, stop lying. There have been no completed, NIH/NIAID/NCCAM or any other studies of those on the drug cocktails COMPARED to those on non-toxic, immune-enhancing alternative therapies and you know it. NCCAM/FIAR is disinterested in therapies addressing the health of persons [mis]diagnosed with 'HIV/AIDS' holistically or multi-factorially. Instead, they have extracted the 'one-cause, one-course' drug based model upon Alternative Medicine. They are mostly interested in managing side effects of toxic drugs. >>> Lower doses didn't work as well, but in the >>> context of Kaiser's antioxidant protocol, they >>> saw a statistically significant increase in >>> CD4 count. Glutamine has been shown beneficial >>> in offsetting protease inhibitor-related >>> diarrhea. >>> I think some study of the sort you propose >>> could happen. What is the question? Effect on >>> CD4 count? A clinical endpoint? Death or >>> disease? >>> >>> If the latter, it would require a fairly large >>> cohort of people and be pretty costly. C'mon George, aren't you curious what the clinical endpoint really would be? What if you and the dominant scientific and conventional medical model were wrong? How about if you were wrong about T-Cells or Viral Load being meaningful medical markers? Can you allow for even that slight possibility-- especially when many in your own camp admit the numbers game is flawed and failed, along with Alternative Medicine and the AIDS Dissidents who say these have not ben demonstrated to correlate with illness or wellness? You gotta give some room here if you are saying you recognize these conflicts in research methodologies and ideologies which prevent our progress in the knowlege about health. We've spent a lot of money looking at this from your perspective [100+ billions] and yet, uncurious George says a few million may be too costly. At least, he's not going to suggest it or even support it. Because George, and the dominant scientific and conventional medical model, cannot even IMAGINE or allow for the possibility that he is wrong. That's called arrogance folks. >>> Is the proposed intervention a combination >>> approach? Well, if it's authentic Alternative Medicine it will be holistic meaning multi-factorial or 'many-causes, many-courses.' >Kelly wrote: > > AIDS Apologists like George would say hard > science such as this would be unethical even if > it would solve the controversy over the efficacy > of the drugs and hundreds of thousands of > persons who have access and are "clincally > eligible" in the West [according to a recent > report of the American Academy of HIV Medicine] > are willfully refusing those "life-saving" drugs > today, many of whom would conceivably give > consent to participate in such a study. >>George wrote: >> >>> AIDS denialists like you don't have a clue >>> about clinical trial design it would seem. Funny, that's what Conventional, Pharmaceutically-based ['one cause, one-course'] Medicine says about Alternative Medicine. Maybe that's why you have problems finding Alternative Health practioners in your foundations [FIAR: Foundation for Integrative AIDS Research socalled "integrative" research protocols who are willing to compromise their principles; to cognitively and clinically disconnect the alternative theories of diagnosis [philosophy] from the alternative therapies of treatment [practise]? Curious George Carter's own idea of "integrative" research supported by unFAIR policies of NCCAM and the AIDS Industry organizations he is in bed with, bastardizes alternative medicine as some stop-gap adjunctive salvage therapy or paliative care in complement to the 'real' medicine: the socalled 'life-saving'[highly toxic and experimental] drug cocktails that have no placebo-controlled [drug versus no drug comparisons] that were completed [not stopped early after only a couple months] demonstrating they extend lenght or quality of life long-term. The obscure alternative therapies are studied in far flung resource poor settings even while the AAHIVM states a significant percentage of those in the USA who are eligible for those socalled "first-line" drug therapies [based on a lower t-cell counts] don't seem to be able to find an AIDS doctor or clinic... er, maybe it's that they know WHERE they are and don't want to go near them? Hmmm... I talk to this group everyday; you know, that group which is arguably the largest UNDERSERVED and UNDEREPRESENTED 'HIV/AIDS' [mis]diagnosed population that you and the AIDS Industry ignores. >>George wrote: >> >>> But no, you are wrong. I think a study could >>> be done for individuals with a higher CD4 >>> count with documented HIV infection. See, if >>> you're a denialist and say HIV doesn't matter >>> or T cell counts are somehow irrelevant, then >>> we can't have a sensible conversation. Well, then you are going to have to call all of Alternative Medicine denialists then too, because they also do not treat diseases or lab tests. That's what half of the NCCAM board and leaders of Alternative Medicine have told me around the world. They say they treat individuals, all very unique, all very individual. As far as 'HIV' [non-specific] antibody positivity, ofcourse. We might agree that any such methodologies designed to include those persons who had previously tested or labled 'HIV' positive and to address their health holistically or multi-factorially. As far as T-Cell counts I thought you said earlier... >Kelly wrote: > > And even though we might not agree on clinical > markers of CD4 T-Cell counts or PCR "Viral Load" > counts could we agree that extended life was a > valid clinical endpoint? >>George wrote: >> >>> Absolutely. So, well, let me see, you would or wouldn't accept morbidity and mortality [LIFE EXTENSION]-- regardless of where CD4 T-Cells or PCR "Viral Load" counts were? I was unclear because you later seemed to contradict that statement. == READ MORE OF KELLY JON LANDIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE DISSENTING SCIENTIFIC AND ALTERNATIVE HEALTH CARE FREEDOM MOVEMENT: ..including testifying before a joint legislative hearing in Sacramento, CA representing the Group for the Scientific Reappriasal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis and arranging for another representative of The Group to provide testimony to the White House Commission on CAM and many other organizations and individuals. 'NATURAL' ALLIES to AIDS DISSIDENCE http://groups.msn.com/AIDSMythExposed/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID _Message=1582&LastModified=4675445024672392681 Healthfully and Hopefully, Kelly Jon Landis 1317 Euclid St., #9 Santa Monica, CA 90404 kjlandis@alumni.usc.edu 310-663-3895 [cell] >>>George wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >No they have not, Mr. Carter, stop lying. Yes these studies have been done. >There have been no completed, >NIH/NIAID/NCCAM or any other studies of those on the drug cocktails >COMPARED to those on non-toxic, immune-enhancing alternative therapies and >you know it. That's not what I was talking about. So to say I was lying is just you having a bad hair day. NOW you have brought up a specific question. Sadly, it is still poorly articulated. And, from it's inchoate rambling nature, it already sounds like one that is unlikely to receive funding from NCCAM or any other source. >NCCAM/FIAR is disinterested in therapies addressing the health of persons >[mis]diagnosed with 'HIV/AIDS' holistically or multi-factorially. Instead, >they have extracted the 'one-cause, one-course' drug based model upon >Alternative Medicine. They are mostly interested in managing side effects >of toxic drugs. I can't speak for NCCAM, but what you say about FIAR is inaccurate. FIAR is interested in pursuing studies of interventions that evaluate the benefits of interventions. FIAR's mission focuses on individuals living with HIV or chronic hepatitis. That is, the people involved with FIAR recognize that HIV and other viruses exist and can often cause disease. >>>> Lower doses didn't work as well, but in the >>> context of Kaiser's >antioxidant protocol, they [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >C'mon George, aren't you curious what the clinical >endpoint really would be? Yes. >What if you and the dominant scientific and >conventional medical model were wrong? About what specifically? The "zeitgeist" has been wrong. Sure. About HIV? I don't think so. Or David Pasquarelli wouldn't have died of AIDS. >How about if you were wrong about >T-Cells or Viral Load being meaningful medical markers? Tell that to David P. There is nothing but an enormous literature that shows they have significant meaning. And that's my experience working with hundreds of people with HIV over the years. Are their anomalies? Sure. >Can you allow for >even that slight possibility-- especially when many in your own camp admit >the numbers game is flawed and failed, along with Alternative Medicine and >the AIDS Dissidents who say these have not ben demonstrated to correlate >with illness or wellness? What? Now you're rambling again. >You gotta give some room here if you are saying >you recognize these conflicts in research methodologies and ideologies >which prevent our progress in the knowlege about health. We've spent a lot >of money looking at this from your perspective [100+ billions] and yet, >uncurious George says a few million may be too costly. I'm not curious about spending money on vague handwaving...nor do I think you would enroll any study that placed at-risk individuals in the position of receiving ARV or not. Aside from the ethics of studies predicated on the notion that HIV doesn't exist and the extremely unlikely event that an IRB would pass such a study. A study of people with higher CD4 counts can be done that might enroll. By contrast, your good buddy Matthias Rath is sort of doing an observational cohort of people at risk, claiming falsely that a multi will save their lives. They're either going on ARV or dying. >At least, he's not >going to suggest it or even support it. Because George, and the dominant >scientific and conventional medical model, cannot even IMAGINE or allow >for the possibility that he is wrong. That's called arrogance folks. To the contrary. There is much about the dominant paradigm one should question. There are other things that evidence has consistently shown to be accurate. To deny it is a "flat-earther" approach that is lovely combination of arrogance and denialism. >>>> Is the proposed intervention a combination >>> approach? > >Well, if it's authentic Alternative Medicine it will be holistic meaning >multi-factorial or 'many-causes, many-courses.' What would such an "authentic" study look like? What is the question? What is the methodology? >>Kelly wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Funny, that's what Conventional, Pharmaceutically-based ['one cause, >one-course'] Medicine says about Alternative Medicine. This is just rhetorical bullshit. Show me that you know anything at all about clinical trial design. >Maybe that's why >you have problems finding Alternative Health practioners in your [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >of diagnosis [philosophy] from the alternative therapies of treatment >[practise]? Nope. Lots of practitioners out there who are happy to work with FIAR. The bigger problem is funding. There are certainly issue about how to best study combination approaches and more holistic approaches within the context of a clinical evaulation. But you evince no deeper understanding of those issues and so resor to: >Curious George Carter's own idea of "integrative" research supported by >unFAIR policies of NCCAM and the AIDS Industry organizations he is in bed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >completed [not stopped early after only a couple months] demonstrating >they extend lenght or quality of life long-term. Blah, blah, blah. You want a study of ARV vs. placebo? Yeah, sure. First, no Institutional Review Board would approve it. Second, no one would fund it. Third, even if obstacles one and two were overcome, no one would enroll in such a study. >The obscure alternative >therapies are studied in far flung resource poor settings even while the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >er, maybe it's that they know WHERE they are and don't want to go near >them? Hmmm... What in the world are you dithering about now? >I talk to this group everyday; you know, that group which is arguably the >largest UNDERSERVED and UNDEREPRESENTED 'HIV/AIDS' [mis]diagnosed >population that you and the AIDS Industry ignores. Are you talking about people of color in inner cities? Intravenous drug users? Homeless people? Personally, I have worked with all these populations. FIAR's one NCCAM funded study is based at Mount Sinai, located in Harlem. I work with all kinds of people. And I absolutely believe that those communities have a lot of information to share with us and I *know* they have a lot of interest in CAM approaches. I have met hardly any folks in these communities that reject ARV. I'm sure there are some. I hope they don't cling to that notion too long or they will die sooner than later. That's not a threat or anything of the sort. It's just reality. >>>George wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Well, then you are going to have to call all of Alternative Medicine >denialists then too, because they also do not treat diseases or lab tests. Who are they? Why don't they get together and propose some studies? Neither I nor FIAR are interested in working with them but they're free to do whatever they want. >That's what half of the NCCAM board and leaders of Alternative Medicine >have told me around the world. They say they treat individuals, all very >unique, all very individual. Are you claiming in this statement that these unnamed people are all denialists? Fascinating. However, to the statement's content, I agree. There IS a big difference between clinical trial results and Medical Practice. But this is as true within the context of allopathic medicine. Understanding what a clinical trial tells us is not the same as dealing with each individual. For example, should everyone take 3 g of acetylcarnitine? Well, it probably wouldn't hurt but it won't do much good. However, if a person has ARV-associated neuropathy, it may help. And we have a clinical study that provides some measure of confidence in making that clinical care decision. Does an intervention like that end up on a formulary or as common prescribing practice among mainstream physicians? So far, generally not. However, things like glutamine are often prescribed, for example, here in NY State, for things like protease-inhibitor associated diarrhea. >As far as 'HIV' [non-specific] antibody >positivity, ofcourse. We might agree that any such methodologies designed >to include those persons who had previously tested or labled 'HIV' >positive and to address their health holistically or multi-factorially. As >far as T-Cell counts I thought you said earlier... At least you seem to recognize that an HIV test indicates something. >>Kelly wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> >>>> Absolutely. If you want to propose a clinical endpoint trial, that' fine. What's the question? >So, well, let me see, you would or wouldn't accept >morbidity and mortality [LIFE EXTENSION]-- regardless of where CD4 T-Cells >or PCR "Viral Load" counts were? I was unclear because you later seemed to >contradict that statement. Not at all. First, clearly I understand the value of various surrogate markers in the evaluation of the course of HIV disease. I tend to look more at CD4 count but it is clear that viral load is also critical. CD4 percentage and rate of change are other important parameters. These parameters are ALSO important from a clinical trials perspective insofar as they may be used to delineate inclusion/exclusion criteria. However, they do have SOME limitation in terms of interpretation when used as they endpoints for clinical trials. But they also help to allow studies to be smaller and more rapid. A trial that looks at clinical endpoints usually requires much larger numbers and longer periods of time in order to be "powered" well enough to see enough events (sickness or death). But you and your group of denialist practitioners seem unable to develop a cle |
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