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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / December 2005

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The Logical Fallacy of the "HIV/AIDS" claim.

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montygram - 17 Dec 2005 09:15 GMT
This is worth considering in light of the nonsense that is presented as
the evidence that "HIV" exists and causes "AIDS:"

"A logical fallacy may mean nothing more than a fallacy or it may
mean an error in deductive reasoning, i.e., a formal fallacy. In the
latter case, it is a flaw in the structure of a deductive argument as
opposed to an error in the premises. When there is a formal fallacy in
a deductive argument it is said to be invalid. The presence of a
fallacy in a deductive argument does not imply anything about the
argument's premises or its conclusion. Both may actually be true, but
the deductive argument is still invalid because the conclusion does not
follow from the premises. By extension, an argument can have a logical
fallacy even if the argument is not a deductive one; for instance an
inductive argument that incorrectly applies principles of probability
or causality can be said to commit a logical fallacy.

Recognizing fallacies in everyday arguments may be difficult since
arguments are often embedded in rhetorical patterns that obscure the
logical connections between statements. Informal fallacies may also
exploit the emotions or intellectual or psychological weaknesses of the
audience."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

And this, the "theory of argumentation" is also worth reading:

"The key components of argumentation:
Understanding and identifying the presentation of an argument, either
explicit or implied
Identifying the conclusion and the premises from which the conclusion
is derived
Establishing the "Burden of proof" - determining who made the initial
claim and is thus responsible for providing evidence why his/her
position merits acceptance
For the one carrying the "Burden of proof", the defender, to marshal
evidence for his/her position in order to convince or force the
opponent's acceptance. The method by which this is accomplished is
producing valid, sound, and cogent arguments, devoid of weaknesses, and
not easily attacked
For the attacker, to listen and find faulty reasoning in the
opponent's argument, to attack the reasons/premises of the argument,
to provide counterexamples if possible, to identify any logical
fallacies, and to show why a valid conclusion cannot be derived from
the reasons provided for his/her argument."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentation_theory

Regardless of how one sees it, "HIV/AIDS" is some sort of bogus
construct, impervious to criticism, with advocates "believing" in a
fairy tale-like dogma, and refusing to consider alternative
possibilities (which are never afforded anywhere near the kind of
latitude given to evidence that purportedly supports the "HIV/AIDS"
claim).  For example, have markers of oxidative stress (e.g., TBARS)
been systematically studied in "HIV/AIDS" patients?  Have the
markers used to indicate "HIV/AIDS" been studied in patients with
"chronic diseases" and those elderly who are clearly deteriorating
rapidly?  It makes more sense that a "positive" test result means
that the body is undergoing just such rapid deterioration, rather than
being "attacked" by a "wily, paradoxical, mutating,
mysterious"retrovirus that "goes off" like a "time bomb" many
years after it was neutralized (assuming it exists) and for no reason
whatsoever, and this can be studied using the scientific method, but it
never has.  Instead, the "HIV/AIDS experts" make predictions over
and over again, and over and over again they are wrong.

If one prediction of an alternative notion was demonstrated to be
false, on the other hand, many of these people would be saying, "see,
that proves we are right and you are wrong."  They simply refuse to
apply any scientifically relevant standards to their claims, while
insisting on the most rigorous standards for anyone else's. The
scientific method requires that when predictions are false, the claim
is abandoned or "goes back to the workshop."  Yet with
"HIV/AIDS," it seems that such setbacks only encourage the
"experts" to make even bolder claims and predictions - an
"Emperor's New Clothes" kind of situation.  One usually finds
this sort of attitude in "religious cults," and perhaps that is
what "HIV/AIDS" is now, for all intents and purposes, plus the
toxic "medicines" and missed opportunities to actually help people
whose bodies are in crisis (and many who are just fine and should never
have been told that they are "diseased").

"HIV/AIDS" was constructed by people with a biased,
self-contradictory view of "health" and "disease."  They did
not possess the imaginations to think beyond the "germs cause
disease" dogma they were fed in medical or graduate school.  One way
to think of the "logical fallacy" of the "HIV/AIDS" claim
involves how advocates usually "move the pea around" in their
"HIV/AIDS" shell game.  If you disparage the slop that passes for
"isolation of HIV," they say that it is a "reasonable"
isolation in light of the "strong correlation" between testing
positive and "dying of AIDS" (though taking the "cocktail
drugs" or psycho-social factors are never considered, nor are control
groups studied).  When you examine the "correlations" and suggest
that they are not very good (Gallo, in his own book, makes the point
that other correlations are "almost" as good) and may be stronger
for other factors, they say, "well, HIV has been isolated, so we know
that it is the cause."  It is a circle of deceit, and in some cases,
self-deceit.  Apparently, Gallo was not aware of the amount of
imprecision involved in "epidemiology."  If he were, I doubt he
would have made such a smug-sounding statement, which, at least in
retrospect, looks rather desperate, at best.
montygram - 18 Dec 2005 08:21 GMT
One thing I think it is worth adding here is that one can find an
explanation for "AIDS" even in the Merck Manual's home edition.
For example, the causes of lymphocytopenia are given as follows:
"sever stress and during treatment involving corticosteriods such as
prednisone, chemotherapy for cancer [AZT was abandoned as a
chemotherapy drug because it was too toxic, let us not forget], and
radiation therapy."  A similar description is found under the causes
of leukemias.  In the case of Mycosis Fungoides, no causes are given,
and it is said to be rare.  There is no mention of it being similar to
anything in the "AIDS" family of diseases, or whatever one wishes
to call that motley collection, yet consider the following:

AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses. 1994 Sep;10(9):1173-7.
"Cutaneous disease resembling mycosis fungoides in HIV-infected
patients whose skin and blood cells also harbor proviral HTLV type
I."
Zucker-Franklin D, Pancake BA, Friedman-Kien AE.

The only reason why well-known causal factors are ignored in the case
of "HIV/AIDS" is that advocates claim that a specific retrovirus
has been isolated and is "correlated" with disease.  The Perth
Group has dismantled the first claim about as thoroughly as anyone
could imagine, and even the most basic epidemiolgy textbook would make
clear that correlations are not causation, but instead a reason to
investigate further (assuming the correlations for one factor are much
better than any other, and that many likely factors have been
investigated thoroughly, which is not the case with "HIV/AIDS").
And even though "AIDS indicatory diseases" are mélange of misery,
advocates seem to enjoy claiming that conditions which are identical to
these "AIDS"-like diseases simply cannot be "AIDS," because
"the people are not infected with HIV."

Would anyone care to ponder whether there is a better example of a
logical fallacy than the "HIV/AIDS" claim?

If there is causal specificity to something in the "AIDS family" of
"indicator diseases," such as massive use of poppers, it would seem
to be a condition similar to Buerger's disease, which only affects a
small number of smokers.  Nobody has claimed that Buerger's disease
is due to "bugs" - it is obvious to all that it is related to
smoking cigarettes, though there may be co-factors.  Nobody knows for
sure, and there is no mad rush to "find the cause," as there was
with "AIDS."  The sociological and political factors seem to have
trumped science by a wide margin, with the disastrous results of people
in emotion turmoil because they were told that they will die from a
non-existent virus, taking incredibly toxic drugs to kill said virus,
and in many cases continuing to engage in the behaviors that will
actually cause "AIDS."  Where were the major public service
announcements about poppers, for example (as was done with "clean
needle use" or "safe sex")?
GMCarter - 18 Dec 2005 12:01 GMT
>One thing I think it is worth adding here is that one can find an
>explanation for "AIDS" even in the Merck Manual's home edition.
>For example, the causes of lymphocytopenia

..which is NOT the same as a persistent, chronic decline of a specific
lymphocyte, the CD4+ T cell.
montygram - 19 Dec 2005 00:34 GMT
Then, Mr. Carter, I'm sure you can cite the studies of other very ill
people who have been tested for these same markers, as well as studies
of large numbers of "HIV infected" people, for these same markers.  I'm
not talking about a couple of dozen people, but thousands, along with
control groups of people who appear to be in "perfect health."  This
would be the only way to even begin to meet the rigorous standards of
the scientific method.

I am waiting...
Gary Stein - 20 Dec 2005 18:09 GMT
> Then, Mr. Carter, I'm sure you can cite the studies of other very ill
> people who have been tested for these same markers, as well as studies
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I am waiting...

It's been done do your own homework and search for CD4 cell counts in
PubMed. How do you suppose that the normal range for CD4 cell counts was
arrived at? In your myth filled brain you probably believe some HIV
conspricisist just pulled the numbers out of thin air but off course you
would be wrong.

Gary Stein
Iconoclaster - 22 Dec 2005 23:13 GMT
>"It's been done do your own homework and search for CD4 cell counts in
PubMed. How do you suppose that the normal range for CD4 cell counts was
arrived at?"

I think it's the immunologists who have not done their homework.  Why is
(almost) everybody so hung up about CD4 counts?  Which pope has decreed
that a low CD4 count is synonimous with disease? This CD4 craze did not
really materialize until the AIDS craze.
Do you know how they count CD4 cells, Mr. Stein?  If something about the
surface of a T-cell changes, it won't even be counted anymore with the
method that is in current use.  It's about time all those immunological
methods got replaced again by good ol' physical methods.
Death - 19 Dec 2005 08:28 GMT
"Susie Carter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message

> ..which is NOT the same as a persistent, chronic decline of a specific
> lymphocyte, the CD4+ T cell.

just say treg

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