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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / December 2005State of the debate?
What is the state of the controversy? Is Duesberg, et al., making any impact on the AIDS establishment? Are they full of baloney? Are they credible? Patrick > What is the state of the controversy? > > Is Duesberg, et al., making any impact on the AIDS establishment? No. They make an small impact on the web though. The establishment ignores them - has done for decades. The "debate" hasn't moved forward for them at all, despite the science leaving them in its dust. > Are they full of baloney? IMHO, yes. >Are they credible? IMHO, no. But then what do I know about the debate.... Cheers Bennett >> What is the state of the controversy? >> >> Is Duesberg, et al., making any impact on the AIDS establishment? > > No. They make an small impact on the web though. The establishment > ignores them - has done for decades. LOL!!! Bennett's pharmaceutical scholarships to Cambridge had plenty to do with his "Mission Impossible" assignment to the internet, where he has completely "ignored" the realists! LOL!!! > The "debate" hasn't moved forward > for them at all, despite the science leaving them in its dust. The only thing left in the dust have been the victims of the drug companies who got their "dirt nap" cures. So, for Bennett and all the other PharmApologists on the internet, perhaps they would be best served if the drug companies would offer REFUNDS for the drugs that haven't worked to deter the onset of AIDS for ANYONE, as they so admit. Come ON, boys and girls - PUT UP OR SHUT UP: . . . After years of promoting "early ARV" treatment as "life-saving", the pharma shills on this newsgroup are STILL biting their tongues over the July 2004 revision of the HIV Standard of Care as published in JAMA: "For less severely compromised individuals (ie, asymptomatic individuals with CD4 cell counts > 200/microL), there are no definitive data from prospective, randomized controlled studies to determine when antiretroviral therapy is associated with a survival benefit." My favorite parts are the disclosures about the outrageous conflicts of interest by the doctors who have been misleading about HIV treatment since the first AZT studies. Enjoy! susie ____ In the 7/14/04 JAMA article titled "Treatment for Adult HIV Infection: 2004 Recommendations of the International AIDS Society-USA Panel," Yeni et al. state: "Randomized clinical trials have demonstrated a survival benefit with the use of antiretroviral therapy by patients with severe immunodeficiency. For less severely compromised individuals (ie, asymptomatic individuals with CD4 cell counts > 200/microL), there are no definitive data from prospective, randomized controlled studies to determine when antiretroviral therapy is associated with a survival benefit. In the absence of such data, the decision to initiate therapy should be made based on survival and disease progression information obtained from observational studies, the consequences of moderate degrees of immune deficiency, and the long-term safety of antiretroviral drugs." --------------------------------- JAMA.2004 Jul 14;292:251-265. Treatment for Adult HIV Infection 2004 Recommendations of the International AIDS Society-USA Panel Patrick G. Yeni, MD; Scott M. Hammer, MD; Martin S. Hirsch, MD; Michael S. Saag, MD; Mauro Schechter, MD, PhD; Charles C. J. Carpenter, MD; Margaret A. Fischl, MD; Jose M. Gatell, MD, PhD; Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD; Donna M. Jacobsen, BS; David A. Katzenstein, MD; Julio S. G. Montaner, MD; Douglas D. Richman, MD; Robert T. Schooley, MD; Melanie A. Thompson, MD; Stefano Vella, MD; Paul A. Volberding, MD Abstract: Context Substantial changes in the field of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) treatment have occurred in the last 2 years, prompting revision of the guidelines for antiretroviral management of adults with established HIV infection. Objective To update recommendations for physicians who provide HIV care regarding when to start antiretroviral therapy, what drugs to start with, when to change drug regimens, and what drug regimens to switch to after therapy fails. Data Sources Evidence was identified and reviewed by a 16-member noncompensated panel of physicians with expertise in HIV-related basic science and clinical research, antiretroviral therapy, and HIV patient care. The panel was designed to have broad US and international representation for areas with adequate access to antiretroviral management. Study Selection Evidence considered included published basic science, clinical research, and epidemiological data (identified by experts in the field or extracted through MEDLINE searches using terms relevant to antiretroviral therapy) and abstracts from HIV-oriented scientific conferences between July 2002 and May 2004. Data Extraction Data were reviewed to identify any information that might change previous guidelines. Based on panel discussion, guidelines were drafted by a writing committee and discussed by the panel until consensus was reached. Data Synthesis Four antiretroviral drugs recently have been made available and have broadened the options for initial and subsequent regimens. New data allow more definitive recommendations for specific drugs or regimens to include or avoid, particularly with regard to initial therapy. Recommendations are rated according to 7 evidence categories, ranging from I (data from prospective randomized clinical trials) to VII (expert opinion of the panel). Conclusion Further insights into the roles of drug toxic effects, drug resistance, and pharmacological interactions have resulted in additional guidance for strategic approaches to antiretroviral management. Author Affiliations: Department of Infectious Diseases, Hospital Bichat-Claude Bernard, X. Bichat Medical School, Paris, France (Dr Yeni); Department of Medicine, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, NY (Dr Hammer); Department of Immunology and Infectious Diseases, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass (Dr Hirsch); Department of Medicine, University of Alabama, Birmingham (Dr Saag); Department of Preventive Medicine, Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro, Brasil (Dr Schechter); Department of Biomedicine, Brown University School of Medicine, Providence, RI (Dr Carpenter); Department of Medicine, University of Miami School of Medicine, Miami, Fla (Dr Fischl); Department of Medicine, University of Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain (Dr Gatell); Department of HIV Medicine, Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, London, England (Dr Gazzard); International AIDS Society-USA, San Francisco, Calif (Ms Jacobsen); Department of Medicine, Stanford University Medical Center, Stanford, Calif (Dr Katzenstein); Department of Medicine, University of British Columbia, Vancouver (Dr Montaner); Departments of Pathology and Medicine, University of California and San Diego VA Healthcare System, San Diego (Dr Richman); Department of Medicine, University of Colorado School of Medicine, Denver (Dr Schooley); AIDS Research Consortium of Atlanta, Ga (Dr Thompson); Istituto Superiore di Sanità, Rome, Italy (Dr Vella); Department of Medicine, University of California and San Francisco Veterans Affairs Medical Center, San Francisco (Dr Volberding). =================================================== Financial disclosures of AIDS researchers - 7/14/04 JAMA JAMA, July 14, 2004 Vol 292, No. 2 251-265 Treatment for Adult 2004 Recommendations International AIDS Society- USA Panel Patrick G. Yeni, MD Scott M. Hammer, MD Martin S. Hirsch, MD Michael S. Saag, MD Mauro Schechter, MD, PhD Charles C. J. Carpenter, MD Margaret A. Fischl, MD Jose M. Gatell, MD, PhD Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD Donna M. Jacobsen, BS David A. Katzenstein, MD Julio S. G. Montaner, MD Douglas D. Richman, MD Robert T. Schooley, MD Melanie A. Thompson, MD Stefano Vella, MD Paul A. Volberding, MD Patrick G. Yeni, MD Dr Yeni has received research grants for site investigator from GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol- Myers Squibb, Boehringer Ingelheim, Roche, Tibotec/Virco, and Gilead. Dr Yeni has received honoraria for advisory positions and lecture sponsorships from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Boehringer Ingelheim, Roche, Tibotec/Virco, and Merck Sharp and Dohme. Scott M. Hammer, MD Dr Hammer has received research grants for site investigator from Roche, GlaxoSmithKline, and Merck. Dr Hammer has been a consultant for Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Shionogi, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Shire, Gilead, and Tibotec/ Virco. Martin S. Hirsch, MD Dr Hirsch has received research support from Takeda. Dr Hirsch has been a consultant for Schering Plough, GlaxoSmithKline, and Bristol-Myers Squibb. Michael S. Saag, MD Dr Saag has received research support from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Ortho Biotech/Johnson&Johnson, Pfizer/Agouron, and Hoffmann- LaRoche. Dr Saag has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Boeringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, OrthoBiotech/Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer/Agouron, Roche, Schering-Plough, Shire Pharmaceutical, TherapyEdge, Tibotec/ Virco, Trimeria, Vertex, and ViroLogic. Dr Saag has received honoraria for positions on the speakers bureau for Abbott Laboratories, Boeringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, OrthoBiotech, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Agouron, Roche, Schering-Plough, Shire Pharmaceutical, TherapyEdge, Tibotec/Virco, Trimeria, Vertex, and ViroLogic. Margaret A. Fischl, MD Dr Fischl has received research grants from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, and Ortho Biotech. Dr Fischl has received honoraria for continuing medical education programs from GlaxoSmithKline. Dr Fischl has served as an advisor for Agouron Pharmaceuticals and GlaxoSmithKline. Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD Dr Gazzard has received research grants from Abbott Laboratories, Boehringer Ingelheim, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Johnson &Johnson. Julio S. G. Montaner, MD Dr Montaner has received grants from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron Pharmaceuticals, Shire Biochemical, Boehringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, DuPont Pharma, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Roche, Kucera Pharmaceutical, Merck Frosst Laboratories, Pharmacia & Upjohn, and Trimeris. Dr Montaner has received honoraria for speaking from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron Pharmaceuticals, Shire Biochemical, Boehringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, DuPont Pharma, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Hoffmann-La Roche, Kucera Pharmaceutical, Merck Frosst Laboratories, Pharmacia & Upjohn, and Trimeris Inc. Dr Montaner holds 2 US patents, one regarding use of nevirapine and another regarding pharmacological applications of mitochondrial DNA assays. Dr Montaner has 2 patent applications that are pending, one regarding pharmacological applications of mitochondrial DNA assays and another regarding sepsis. Robert T. Schooley, MD Dr Schooley has received grants from GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, and Tibotec/Virco. Dr Schooley has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Pfizer, Hoffmann-LaRoche, GlaxoSmithKline, BristolMyers Squibb, Merck, Vertex, ViroLogic, and Tibotec/Virco. Melanie A. Thompson, MD Dr Thompson has received grants from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron/ Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Boeringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Chiron Corporation, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead Sciences, Merck Research Laboratories, Oxo-Chemie, Roche, Serono, Theratechnologies, Triangle Pharmaceuticals, Trimeris, and VaxGen. Dr Thompson has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Agouron/Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead Sciences, Serono, and Triangle Pharmaceuticals. Dr Thompson has received honoraria for lecture sponsorships and continuing medical education from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron/ Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Boeringer Ingleheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead Sciences, Roche, Serono, Triangle Pharmaceuticals, and Trimeris. Mauro Schechter, MD, PhD Dr Schechter has received honoraria from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, and Roche. Dr Schechter has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, BristolMyers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, and Roche. Jose M. Gatell, MD, PhD Dr Gatell has served in advisory positions for Roche, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck Sharp and Dohme, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead, Boehringer Ingelheim, Abbott Laboratories, Tibotec/ Virco. Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD Dr Gazzard has received lectureship fees from Abbott Laboratories, Boehringer Ingelheim, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Johnson & Johnson. David A. Katzenstein, MD Dr Katzenstein has held advisory positions at Boehringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, ViroLogic, Visible Genetics, and the Doris Duke Charitable Trust. Dr Katzenstein holds a US patent for polymerase chain reaction assays monitoring antiviral therapy and making therapeutic decisions in the treatment of AIDS. Stefano Vella, MD Dr Vella has received lecture sponsorship for satellite symposia and continuing medical education programs from Merck, Agouron, Gilead, Boehringer Ingelheim, and Roche. Paul A. Volberding, MD Dr Volberding has received honoraria from Gilead, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, and Boehringer Ingelheim. Dr Volberding has been a consultant for Pfizer, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Shire. Douglas D. Richman, MD Dr Richman has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Chiron, Gilead, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Novirio, Pfizer, Roche, Takeda, Triangle, and ViroLogic. Corresponding Author: Patrick G. Yeni, MD, Hospital Bichat-Claude Bernard, 46 Rue Henri-Huchard, 75877 Paris Cedex 18, France (Patrick.Yeni@Bch .Ap-Hop-Paris.Fr). Thank you, Susie! The most impressive part of this publication was formed by the Financial Disclosures. I think they speak for themselves... Haw! haw! haw! >"The "debate" hasn't moved forward for them at all, despite the science leaving them in its dust." If there's any real science behind the orthodox yarn-spinning, I'll need to see the first example of it. >"What is the state of the controversy? The debate is still going on, but the top "experts" of the orthodoxy are not participating. They have too much to lose. They have their shills to defend their cause. >"Is Duesberg, et al., making any impact on the AIDS establishment?" Hardly. The establishment has all the money and all the media attention. >"Are they full of baloney? Are they credible?" Dissidents like Duesberg are credible, but there's no money in believing them. Duesberg has been largely passed by at this point, due to the incredibly detailed and thorough work of the Perth Group, along with studies not directly related to "HIV/AIDS" but involving the same mechanims the Perth Group and Lanka/Kremer are talking about ("oxidising agents") - this is mostly in the "chronic disease" context. His Inventing the AIDS Virsus book is still worth reading - lots of good material. For some reason, however, he doesn't want to apply the scientific method to virus isolation. I wish he would address why the Perth Group's suggestion about true isolation should not be done, because then there would be resolution on that point. The rest of the issue is sociological - how "social myths" become established, how "turf" gets defined and defended, etc. What is irritating to those who are interested in understanding the scientfic reality is how the "establishment" authorities don't address the points made by the Perth Group. Instead, they just make believe that the Perth Group never existed. In grad. school, we were taught that any reasonable criticism of your arguments had to be addressed to the tiniest detail, yet in this matter, where millions of lives are at stake, the "establishment" people don't seem to care how sloppy, incoherent, silly, or contradictory the pronouncements they make are. It makes the European witch craze of a few hundred years ago almost seem rational. Duesberg has been largely passed by at this point, due to the incredibly detailed and thorough work of the Perth Group, along with studies not directly related to "HIV/AIDS" but involving the same mechanims the Perth Group and Lanka/Kremer are talking about ("oxidising agents") - this is mostly in the "chronic disease" context. His Inventing the AIDS Virsus book is still worth reading - lots of good material. For some reason, however, he doesn't want to apply the scientific method to virus isolation. I wish he would address why the Perth Group's suggestion about true isolation should not be done, because then there would be resolution on that point. The rest of the issue is sociological - how "social myths" become established, how "turf" gets defined and defended, etc. What is irritating to those who are interested in understanding the scientfic reality is how the "establishment" authorities don't address the points made by the Perth Group. Instead, they just make believe that the Perth Group never existed. In grad. school, we were taught that any reasonable criticism of your arguments had to be addressed to the tiniest detail, yet in this matter, where millions of lives are at stake, the "establishment" people don't seem to care how sloppy, incoherent, silly, or contradictory the pronouncements they make are. It makes the European witch craze of a few hundred years ago almost seem rational. >Duesberg has been largely passed by at this point, due to the >incredibly detailed and thorough work of the Perth Group, Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....now ain't that the sad f.cking joke of the split among denialists...some say HIV exists, others it don't....others will say whichever suits the argument of the moment. >>Duesberg has been largely passed by at this point, due to the >>incredibly detailed and thorough work of the Perth Group, > > Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....now ain't that the sad f.cking joke of > the split among denialists...some say HIV exists, others it > don't....others will say whichever suits the argument of the moment. But George Mary-Bob, NONE of these discussions would go very long if ANY of you PharmApologists could offer a scintilla of unquestionable scientific proof. Now THAT'S the "f.cking joke" here. susie >>>Duesberg has been largely passed by at this point, due to the >>>incredibly detailed and thorough work of the Perth Group, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >go very long if ANY of you PharmApologists could offer >a scintilla of unquestionable scientific proof. But W. Fred Shaw-Poop, ex-lic ac, ex-parole officer, ex-con, NO science is ever "unquestionable." >Now THAT'S the "f.cking joke" here. Yes, indeedy! Quite a poorly written joke, too! Your sense of precision is getting blunted. Is it time for another violation? >>>>Duesberg has been largely passed by at this point, due to the >>>>incredibly detailed and thorough work of the Perth Group, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Your sense of precision is getting blunted. Is it time for another > violation? George Mary-Bob, as a proud gay resident of the Bronx, let me say that you do your hometown mighty proud. susie >George Mary-Bob, as a proud gay resident of the Bronx, >let me say that you do your hometown mighty proud. Fred Mary Frank, I offer you the quintessential Bronx Cheer! >>George Mary-Bob, as a proud gay resident of the Bronx, >>let me say that you do your hometown mighty proud. > > Fred Mary Frank, I offer you the quintessential Bronx Cheer! No sweetie, you ARE the embodiment of the Bronx Cheer... susie "Susie, age 9" <nomail@noway.com> wrote in message > But George Mary-Bob, NONE of these discussions would > go very long if ANY of you PharmApologists could offer > a scintilla of unquestionable scientific proof. how many more bodies do you require? I see 20 million isn't enough. > "Susie, age 9" <nomail@noway.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > how many more bodies do you require? > I see 20 million isn't enough. Bodies are proof of nothing more than the fact that people die. Death is proof that a.sholes can talk. susie "Susie, age 9" <nomail@noway.com> wrote in message > " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Bodies are proof of nothing more than the fact > that people die. Fred age 9 wrote in message OBITUARIES Bay Area Reporter Dec 8 2005 How strange - except for the fact that the protease inhibitor drugs and IL-2 have been associated with all sorts of odd and "AIDS-unrelated" cancers. Let's take a look at this weeks Bay Area casualty list. Adam Kazimir Ciesielski Much to his surprise, Adam was born in Kenosha, Wisconsin and died in Marin General Hospital following a 22-year fight against AIDS, which he seems to have won. He was killed by an unrelated cancer. Kevin C. Dunne Born in Albany, New York, son of the late Constance A. and Charles W. Dunne, Kevin Dunne passed away at St. Peter's Hospice in Albany, NY, on November 22, 2005. Kevin bravely fought a short but difficult and painful battle with gastric cancer. His ashes will be scattered in the Pacific Ocean in his beloved San Francisco, where he lived most of his adult life. Kevin was a travel agent for the past 25 years, both in Albany, NY, and the San Francisco Bay Area. For a few years, he also worked at the San Francisco AIDS Foundation John Orr John Orr, age 46, passed away on November 9, 2005 at the University of California San Francisco Hospital, surrounded by family and friends. John died of a lung infection This isn't my post you hypocrite > "Susie, age 9" <nomail@noway.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > OBITUARIES Bay Area Reporter Dec 8 2005 In these cases, of treatment. Sorry Death, you just can't seem to get any points. susie "Susie, age 9" <nomail@noway.com> wrote in message > " Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message > >> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > "Susie, age 9" <nomail@noway.com> wrote in message >Bodies are proof of nothing more than the fact >that people die. > "Susie, age 9" <nomail@noway.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>Bodies are proof of nothing more than the fact >>that people die. Come on, Deathy, you are struggling to make some sort of tenuous point, so why must you be so short of words? susie >>"What is the state of the controversy? > >The debate is still going on Only in the minds of conflicted jackasses like you, like the dumbass in Iran that says the Holocaust didn't occur, the moron in the Shite House who thinks torture is fine and 30,000 murdered people based on lies is not a big deal, and a Mugabe who can destroy the homes of thousands and thousands of poor people and think he's doing something sensible. In short, despite abundant evidence that these ideas are just f.cking wrong, as wrong and deadly stupid as denialism, a.sholes like you cilng to them. George M. Carter >>>"What is the state of the controversy? >> >>The debate is still going on > > Only in the minds of conflicted jackasses like you > In short, despite abundant evidence that these ideas are just f.cking > wrong, as wrong and deadly stupid as denialism, a.sholes like you > cilng to them. Oh my, George Mary-Bob - now that's a REAL boost for rational dialogue! LOL! susie >Oh my, George Mary-Bob - now that's a REAL boost for rational dialogue! LOL--you represent always the height of rationality, doncha? >>Oh my, George Mary-Bob - now that's a REAL boost for rational dialogue! > > LOL--you represent always the height of rationality, doncha? You betcha. susie >>>Oh my, George Mary-Bob - now that's a REAL boost for rational dialogue! >> >> LOL--you represent always the height of rationality, doncha? > >You betcha. Certainly not! That'd be a losing bet! >>>>Oh my, George Mary-Bob - now that's a REAL boost for rational dialogue! >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Certainly not! That'd be a losing bet! Gotcha. susie >"Only in the minds of conflicted jackasses like you, like the dumbass in Iran that says the Holocaust didn't occur" Oh, but I can assure you that the Holocaust did occurr. I should know; I was there when it happened. On the other hand, the dumbass in Iran says something else that does make sense to me: If there was a Holocaust, then it was perpetrated by the Europeans. So let the Europeans give the Jews some land, so that they can have their own country. Don't shove them off on the Islamic world. I can certainly see the logic there. Cut off a piece of Germany and a slice of Austria. Join them together and call it New-Israel. Then move all the Israelis to their new country. Problem solved. And, by the way, Iran has taught us something else: In Tehran an airplane flew into a tall building. Terrible thing to happen. But... That building did not collapse! Nothing that reminded us of the carefully controlled collapse of the two towers on 9/11. Do I smell something fishy? >"In short, despite abundant evidence that these ideas are just f.cking wrong, as wrong and deadly stupid as denialism, a.sholes like you cilng to them." Totally unfair to me, Mr. Carter. I never denied the Holocaust, I never approved of torture, and I strongly condemn murdering 30,000 people on the basis of lies, such as the one about deadly poisons that would be needed to "kill" a virus has ever seen, touched or smelled. Yes Mr. Carter, there is a new Holocaust going on. And you're part of it. > >"Only in the minds of conflicted jackasses like you, like the dumbass in > Iran that says the Holocaust didn't occur" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > controlled collapse of the two towers on 9/11. Do I smell something > fishy? Oh now your true self is revealed your another wild-eyed conspiracy nut. I suppose you believe that the CIA under the orders of George W on the request of Israel planned the destruction of the twin towers and the attack on the Pentagon. Do you also know who really killed Kennedy, do have proof that man has never been to the moon, and do you know for a fact that common vaccines are modern medicines corrupt plan to poison the worlds children? Gary Stein > Oh now your true self is revealed your another wild-eyed conspiracy nut. AIDS dementia, however belated, is atrocious. susie > >"What is the state of the controversy? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Dissidents like Duesberg are credible, but there's no money in believing > them. If Duesberg is credible why don't you believe his paper on the isolation of HIV? Gary Stein >"If Duesberg is credible why don't you believe his paper on the isolation of HIV?" He never wrote such a paper. He wrote an article on Continuum, where he claimed the prize that had been offered (maybe he was kidding; maybe he was drunk; maybe he needed the money). But he mentioned "molecular cloning". And that's not the same as isolation. A string of RNA nucleotides is not a virus. (Not to mention a DNA chain hypothesized to be related to a virus that contains RNA). > What is the state of the controversy? The so called "rethinkers" have for the most part degenerated into a group of internet mavens whose arguments are entirely faith based. After 20+ years of having the science completely discrediting there ideas they have given up on science and now rely on faith and rhetoric to promulgate there message. There numbers have remained remarkably small and unchanged over the decades. And they have as of this date not produced a single piece of peer reviewed research designed to either disprove the HIV=AIDS paradigm or prove any of the multitude of alternative theories they propose. > Is Duesberg, et al., making any impact on the AIDS establishment? He never did, though Mullis and Rasnick have managed to help kill many South Africans due to there influence with the current government of that country. > Are they full of baloney? Are they credible? Yes they are full of baloney, no they have no credible science that backs up there claims but they do have thousands of WebPages full of faith based psuedo science that they claim backs up there belief system. Gary Stein >> What is the state of the controversy? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > given up on science and now rely on faith and rhetoric to promulgate there > message. Sheesh ... there goes those PharmApologist Talking Points again... > And they have as of this date not produced a single piece of peer reviewed > research designed to either disprove the HIV=AIDS paradigm Let's take this Irrational PharmaPimp apart, shall we: The "paradigm" is the accepted establishment's Santa Claus. The burden of proof for Santa Claus is on the establishment. Those who don't believe in Santa Claus DO NOT have the burden of proving Santa's NON-existence. > He never did, though Mullis and Rasnick have managed to help kill many > South Africans due to there influence with the current government of that > country. And how many people has Gary Stein killed with his advocacy of early intervention ARV treatment for the unsick, even KNOWING that no proof of efficacy has ever been produced (in fact, the IAS standard of care states the exact opposite): ========== Early ARV Treatment = NO BENEFIT After years of promoting "early ARV" treatment as "life-saving", the pharma shills on this newsgroup are STILL biting their tongues over the July 2004 revision of the HIV Standard of Care as published in JAMA: "For less severely compromised individuals (ie, asymptomatic individuals with CD4 cell counts > 200/microL), there are no definitive data from prospective, randomized controlled studies to determine when antiretroviral therapy is associated with a survival benefit." My favorite parts are the disclosures about the outrageous conflicts of interest by the doctors who have been misleading about HIV treatment since the first AZT studies. ____ In the 7/14/04 JAMA article titled "Treatment for Adult HIV Infection: 2004 Recommendations of the International AIDS Society-USA Panel," Yeni et al. state: "Randomized clinical trials have demonstrated a survival benefit with the use of antiretroviral therapy by patients with severe immunodeficiency. For less severely compromised individuals (ie, asymptomatic individuals with CD4 cell counts > 200/microL), there are no definitive data from prospective, randomized controlled studies to determine when antiretroviral therapy is associated with a survival benefit. In the absence of such data, the decision to initiate therapy should be made based on survival and disease progression information obtained from observational studies, the consequences of moderate degrees of immune deficiency, and the long-term safety of antiretroviral drugs." --------------------------------- JAMA.2004 Jul 14;292:251-265. Treatment for Adult HIV Infection 2004 Recommendations of the International AIDS Society-USA Panel Patrick G. Yeni, MD; Scott M. Hammer, MD; Martin S. Hirsch, MD; Michael S. Saag, MD; Mauro Schechter, MD, PhD; Charles C. J. Carpenter, MD; Margaret A. Fischl, MD; Jose M. Gatell, MD, PhD; Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD; Donna M. Jacobsen, BS; David A. Katzenstein, MD; Julio S. G. Montaner, MD; Douglas D. Richman, MD; Robert T. Schooley, MD; Melanie A. Thompson, MD; Stefano Vella, MD; Paul A. Volberding, MD Abstract: Context Substantial changes in the field of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) treatment have occurred in the last 2 years, prompting revision of the guidelines for antiretroviral management of adults with established HIV infection. Objective To update recommendations for physicians who provide HIV care regarding when to start antiretroviral therapy, what drugs to start with, when to change drug regimens, and what drug regimens to switch to after therapy fails. Data Sources Evidence was identified and reviewed by a 16-member noncompensated panel of physicians with expertise in HIV-related basic science and clinical research, antiretroviral therapy, and HIV patient care. The panel was designed to have broad US and international representation for areas with adequate access to antiretroviral management. Study Selection Evidence considered included published basic science, clinical research, and epidemiological data (identified by experts in the field or extracted through MEDLINE searches using terms relevant to antiretroviral therapy) and abstracts from HIV-oriented scientific conferences between July 2002 and May 2004. Data Extraction Data were reviewed to identify any information that might change previous guidelines. Based on panel discussion, guidelines were drafted by a writing committee and discussed by the panel until consensus was reached. Data Synthesis Four antiretroviral drugs recently have been made available and have broadened the options for initial and subsequent regimens. New data allow more definitive recommendations for specific drugs or regimens to include or avoid, particularly with regard to initial therapy. Recommendations are rated according to 7 evidence categories, ranging from I (data from prospective randomized clinical trials) to VII (expert opinion of the panel). Conclusion Further insights into the roles of drug toxic effects, drug resistance, and pharmacological interactions have resulted in additional guidance for strategic approaches to antiretroviral management. Author Affiliations: Department of Infectious Diseases, Hospital Bichat-Claude Bernard, X. Bichat Medical School, Paris, France (Dr Yeni); Department of Medicine, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, NY (Dr Hammer); Department of Immunology and Infectious Diseases, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass (Dr Hirsch); Department of Medicine, University of Alabama, Birmingham (Dr Saag); Department of Preventive Medicine, Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro, Brasil (Dr Schechter); Department of Biomedicine, Brown University School of Medicine, Providence, RI (Dr Carpenter); Department of Medicine, University of Miami School of Medicine, Miami, Fla (Dr Fischl); Department of Medicine, University of Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain (Dr Gatell); Department of HIV Medicine, Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, London, England (Dr Gazzard); International AIDS Society-USA, San Francisco, Calif (Ms Jacobsen); Department of Medicine, Stanford University Medical Center, Stanford, Calif (Dr Katzenstein); Department of Medicine, University of British Columbia, Vancouver (Dr Montaner); Departments of Pathology and Medicine, University of California and San Diego VA Healthcare System, San Diego (Dr Richman); Department of Medicine, University of Colorado School of Medicine, Denver (Dr Schooley); AIDS Research Consortium of Atlanta, Ga (Dr Thompson); Istituto Superiore di Sanità, Rome, Italy (Dr Vella); Department of Medicine, University of California and San Francisco Veterans Affairs Medical Center, San Francisco (Dr Volberding). =================================================== Financial disclosures of AIDS researchers - 7/14/04 JAMA JAMA, July 14, 2004 Vol 292, No. 2 251-265 Treatment for Adult 2004 Recommendations International AIDS Society- USA Panel Patrick G. Yeni, MD Scott M. Hammer, MD Martin S. Hirsch, MD Michael S. Saag, MD Mauro Schechter, MD, PhD Charles C. J. Carpenter, MD Margaret A. Fischl, MD Jose M. Gatell, MD, PhD Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD Donna M. Jacobsen, BS David A. Katzenstein, MD Julio S. G. Montaner, MD Douglas D. Richman, MD Robert T. Schooley, MD Melanie A. Thompson, MD Stefano Vella, MD Paul A. Volberding, MD Patrick G. Yeni, MD Dr Yeni has received research grants for site investigator from GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol- Myers Squibb, Boehringer Ingelheim, Roche, Tibotec/Virco, and Gilead. Dr Yeni has received honoraria for advisory positions and lecture sponsorships from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Boehringer Ingelheim, Roche, Tibotec/Virco, and Merck Sharp and Dohme. Scott M. Hammer, MD Dr Hammer has received research grants for site investigator from Roche, GlaxoSmithKline, and Merck. Dr Hammer has been a consultant for Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Shionogi, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Shire, Gilead, and Tibotec/ Virco. Martin S. Hirsch, MD Dr Hirsch has received research support from Takeda. Dr Hirsch has been a consultant for Schering Plough, GlaxoSmithKline, and Bristol-Myers Squibb. Michael S. Saag, MD Dr Saag has received research support from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Ortho Biotech/Johnson&Johnson, Pfizer/Agouron, and Hoffmann- LaRoche. Dr Saag has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Boeringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, OrthoBiotech/Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer/Agouron, Roche, Schering-Plough, Shire Pharmaceutical, TherapyEdge, Tibotec/ Virco, Trimeria, Vertex, and ViroLogic. Dr Saag has received honoraria for positions on the speakers bureau for Abbott Laboratories, Boeringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, OrthoBiotech, Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Agouron, Roche, Schering-Plough, Shire Pharmaceutical, TherapyEdge, Tibotec/Virco, Trimeria, Vertex, and ViroLogic. Margaret A. Fischl, MD Dr Fischl has received research grants from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, and Ortho Biotech. Dr Fischl has received honoraria for continuing medical education programs from GlaxoSmithKline. Dr Fischl has served as an advisor for Agouron Pharmaceuticals and GlaxoSmithKline. Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD Dr Gazzard has received research grants from Abbott Laboratories, Boehringer Ingelheim, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Johnson &Johnson. Julio S. G. Montaner, MD Dr Montaner has received grants from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron Pharmaceuticals, Shire Biochemical, Boehringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, DuPont Pharma, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Roche, Kucera Pharmaceutical, Merck Frosst Laboratories, Pharmacia & Upjohn, and Trimeris. Dr Montaner has received honoraria for speaking from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron Pharmaceuticals, Shire Biochemical, Boehringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, DuPont Pharma, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Hoffmann-La Roche, Kucera Pharmaceutical, Merck Frosst Laboratories, Pharmacia & Upjohn, and Trimeris Inc. Dr Montaner holds 2 US patents, one regarding use of nevirapine and another regarding pharmacological applications of mitochondrial DNA assays. Dr Montaner has 2 patent applications that are pending, one regarding pharmacological applications of mitochondrial DNA assays and another regarding sepsis. Robert T. Schooley, MD Dr Schooley has received grants from GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, and Tibotec/Virco. Dr Schooley has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Pfizer, Hoffmann-LaRoche, GlaxoSmithKline, BristolMyers Squibb, Merck, Vertex, ViroLogic, and Tibotec/Virco. Melanie A. Thompson, MD Dr Thompson has received grants from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron/ Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Boeringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Chiron Corporation, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead Sciences, Merck Research Laboratories, Oxo-Chemie, Roche, Serono, Theratechnologies, Triangle Pharmaceuticals, Trimeris, and VaxGen. Dr Thompson has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Agouron/Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead Sciences, Serono, and Triangle Pharmaceuticals. Dr Thompson has received honoraria for lecture sponsorships and continuing medical education from Abbott Laboratories, Agouron/ Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Boeringer Ingleheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead Sciences, Roche, Serono, Triangle Pharmaceuticals, and Trimeris. Mauro Schechter, MD, PhD Dr Schechter has received honoraria from Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, and Roche. Dr Schechter has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, BristolMyers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, and Roche. Jose M. Gatell, MD, PhD Dr Gatell has served in advisory positions for Roche, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck Sharp and Dohme, GlaxoSmithKline, Gilead, Boehringer Ingelheim, Abbott Laboratories, Tibotec/ Virco. Brian G. Gazzard, MA, MD Dr Gazzard has received lectureship fees from Abbott Laboratories, Boehringer Ingelheim, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Johnson & Johnson. David A. Katzenstein, MD Dr Katzenstein has held advisory positions at Boehringer Ingelheim, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Gilead Sciences, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, ViroLogic, Visible Genetics, and the Doris Duke Charitable Trust. Dr Katzenstein holds a US patent for polymerase chain reaction assays monitoring antiviral therapy and making therapeutic decisions in the treatment of AIDS. Stefano Vella, MD Dr Vella has received lecture sponsorship for satellite symposia and continuing medical education programs from Merck, Agouron, Gilead, Boehringer Ingelheim, and Roche. Paul A. Volberding, MD Dr Volberding has received honoraria from Gilead, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, and Boehringer Ingelheim. Dr Volberding has been a consultant for Pfizer, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Shire. Douglas D. Richman, MD Dr Richman has been a consultant for Abbott Laboratories, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Chiron, Gilead, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Novirio, Pfizer, Roche, Takeda, Triangle, and ViroLogic. Corresponding Author: Patrick G. Yeni, MD, Hospital Bichat-Claude Bernard, 46 Rue Henri-Huchard, 75877 Paris Cedex 18, France (Patrick.Yeni@Bch .Ap-Hop-Paris.Fr). >> He never did, though Mullis and Rasnick have managed to help kill many >>South Africans due to there influence with the current government of that country. >And how many people has Gary Stein killed with >his advocacy of >early intervention ARV treatment for the unsick, >even KNOWING >that no proof of efficacy has ever been produced >(in fact, the >IAS standard of care states the exact opposite): ========== Early ARV Treatment = NO BENEFIT After years of promoting "early ARV" treatment as "life-saving", the pharma shills on this newsgroup are STILL biting their tongues over the July 2004 revision of the HIV Standard of Care as published in JAMA: "For less severely compromised individuals (ie, asymptomatic individuals with CD4 cell counts > 200/microL), there are no definitive data from prospective, randomized controlled studies to determine when antiretroviral therapy is associated with a survival benefit." Susie, keep up the good work. This is information I can really use. Ouch...it looks like AIDS, inc. is shooting themselves in the foot with this one. Good. >"Let's take this Irrational PharmaPimp apart, shall we:" Well, I'll be... That's exactly what I was thinking when I read Mr. Stein't outrageous post. But you beat me to it, Susie, and you did a good job of it.
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