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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2005Dr. Proves Immune Product on HIV & Cancer
Hi, I recently came across a product that really caught me by surprise. I have always taken supplements of all kinds to boost my immune system for various reasons. We have all probably battled with what to buy from Health Food Stores in regards to upplements. I did learn that I did not see one supplement that could say anything about what it was proven to cure or get results on. The product I found has patents in almost every country and is the culmination of 20 years of research at the world-renowned McGill University, in conjunction with the Montreal General Hospital, by Dr. Gustavo Bounous MD and his research team. The head of Research now is considered the number one in the world from Germany in Immune System research ie: Dr. Wulf Droge - The Dr's involved have studied and researched all around the world and proved the concepts of their treatment and the benefits of this product before they created it. They can claim it boosted the immune systems in HIV/AIDS patients and Cancer patients making tremendous differnces in their lives. Read for yourself - even the Government of Canada has listed their information on a government website. They are listed in the U.S. Physicians' Desk Reference (PDR) and that is not easy to do. In the USA the product is reimburseable through the medical system. Here is the website: www.naturallydynamic.com Hopefully this is helpfull information. Bill >Hi, > >I recently came across a product that really caught me by surprise. I >have always taken supplements of all kinds to boost my immune system >for various reasons. Ah--boosting the immune system is NOT necessarily entirely a good idea. While with HIV disease part of the immune system is depleted (e.g., CD4+ decline), hyperactivity in immune function may be what drives the loss of T cells. The product you're talking about I believe IS a good product. It is a fraction of milk, which is comprised of casein and whey. The whey proteins have a fair amount of cysteine, the amino acid most needed for glutathione replenishment and to make up the massive loss of sulfur seen by people with HIV as discovered by Droge's group. Bounous et al. showed that something as simple (and cheap) as whey protein can offset the failure to thrive seen in kids with HIV. You can obtain whey inexpensively. I use it daily. Crap like Immunocal, tho, was introduced as multi-level marketing at an outrageous price. Complete, total ripoff. George M. Carter Hi George, You seem quite knowledgeable and it is nice to see an almost possitive feedback. You are familiar with Dr. Wulf Droge...you should become familiar with what he proved in 1988 in regards to whey protein from Denmark. It was shipped over seas to him..he worked with it and worked with it..could not get any more of the results that he had been getting and got discouraged until he figured out that the Cysteine was so sensitive to heat & humidity that in transit to him the Cysteine quality was destroyed...therefore realising that it was critical to develop an extraction process & packaging process that would ensure the quality of the whey protein isolate so it would have some real Cysteine in it when consumed by the customer. Another comment about MLM. It seems to throw people off from a credibility point of view. It is simply a distribution system. The product you are currently buying pays the wages of the manufacturer, the markup and wages associated to the wholesaler, the wages and the markup of the distributor..etc. It is really all the same from the point of view of what the original cost was and what we pay at the retail level. One difference is I get to personally explain this product where other ones will sit on a shelf confussing consumers as they look for help. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >Hi George, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the whey protein isolate so it would have some real Cysteine in it when >consumed by the customer. Excuse me--but I don't believe this. I know Droge. If you have citations or other evidence to support this claim, go for it. I'm sure there can be problems with heat but a variety of products provide cold-processed material. You needn't pay much for it. And until I see evidence to the contrary, I do not believe that the cysteine bound in whey proteins is going to selectively degrade without the whole batch turning to crap. Do feel free to provide the evidence. >Another comment about MLM. It seems to throw people off from a >credibility point of view. It is simply a distribution system. Bullshit. It's a f.cked up marketing technique that jacks the price up for the end user outrageously. It's called a pyramid scheme--and they usually collapse. George M. Carter >>Another comment about MLM. It seems to throw people off from a >>credibility point of view. It is simply a distribution system. > > Bullshit. It's a f.cked up marketing technique that jacks the price up > for the end user outrageously. It's called a pyramid scheme--and they > usually collapse. No, MLM isn't *quite* a pyramid/ponzi scheme, but you're right about the prices being jacked up. Every level has... hmmm... "value added" to it. B/ >Another comment about MLM. It seems to throw people off from a >credibility point of view. It is simply a distribution system. I went once to a kitchenware party, from which 1/10 of the proceeds were to be given to an AIDS charity. The first, and longest, part of the sales pitch was a talk about the benefits of joining up as a distributor. The product was secondary. Distributing a product is the pretext for, not the purpose of, MLM. The purpose of MLM is MLM.  SignatureDavid Canzi "I am not denying anything." -- Celia Farber ... >The purpose of MLM is MLM. marys who love mary? and brian: thanks for the correction! Hi All, Well to my friend with the english and etiquette issues please refrain from the foul language if you intend to demonstrate any intelligence because you do seem somewhat intelligent. In regards to the comment about knowing Dr. Droge...not sure what that proves but here's the link to his patent information which clearly refernces the degredation of the whey in transit and the need to control heat & humidity. - this page is pretty clear about what Dr Droge found and believed..and he is one of the most respected in the world for Immune System research. http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/cache/gif/01333471dis.afp.21.s0.25.r0.gif And of course in regards to the MLM aspect, you can go to an importer and see that you can buy a tool for $1 from Taiwan that the hardware store retails for $10...and even the $1 is marked up from 50 cents or less because they are a middle man. In another instance I personally know someone in the hemp business and the raw oil they press for approximately $1 gets retailed for about $20...now if that isn't worse then what you are describing about MLM I don't know what is. Hopefully I have respectfully and intelligently answered all of the rebuttals however I do look forward to any more if you feel there is anything left to debate. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >Hi All, > >Well to my friend with the english and etiquette issues please refrain >from the foul language if you intend to demonstrate any intelligence >because you do seem somewhat intelligent. Honey, this is misc.health.aids. If you can't take the heat, scram. I shouldn't even bother with you because you're basically just selling stuff here. >In regards to the comment about knowing Dr. Droge...not sure what that >proves but here's the link to his patent information which clearly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Immune System research. >http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/cache/gif/01333471dis.afp.21.s0.25.r0.gif Droge isn't on this patent. http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/details?patent_number=1333471&language=EN At any rate, this is a patent application. Now, it does seem reasonable that a modestly denatured whey product might have some cysteine sulfhydryl bonds liberated and they might then rebind elsewhere. But I'd prefer some clinical data than a patent application. And again, there are a variety of products available that use processing methods that retain the protein conformation. >And of course in regards to the MLM aspect, you can go to an importer >and see that you can buy a tool for $1 from Taiwan that the hardware [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >approximately $1 gets retailed for about $20...now if that isn't worse >then what you are describing about MLM I don't know what is. This is disingenuous horsepucky. (Is that nicer than saying it's f.cking horsesht?) Market competition means one can obtain the stuff less expensively. Yes, you can indeed sell stuff at any price you like. Doesn't mean people will buy it. And I heartily recommend that they do not if it's more than say $20 for 908 g. >Hopefully I have respectfully and intelligently answered all of the >rebuttals however I do look forward to any more if you feel there is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. >www.naturallydynamic.com You link doesn't work. How much do you sell the stuff for? George M. Carter Hi GM, My link was down but is back up now. In regards to that link..the patent is in Dr. Bounous's name who is another very credible Dr & PHd however at this point Dr. Wulf Droge is head of research for Immunotec and confers that information & research or he would not be listed as one of their directors on their website. In regards products you are familiar with that "really work"..ditto..where is the research backing the product you refer to? Immunotec has gone to a lot of expense to back theirs up with research and credible Dr's. With respect to the value of things...I guess if you feel you would rather pay $2/day for coffee and feel that $2/day is too much for your immune system then I guess I am in the wrong place...and your right I am in the business however only because I thought the product, research and company was amazing. A 300g box which has 30 x 10g pouches of which you would take one per day is $60 Canadian or approximately $50 US. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >Hi GM, snip >A 300g box which has 30 x 10g pouches of which you >would take one per day is $60 Canadian or approximately $50 US. That's an obscene price. I would recommend people not buy your product. Sounds like the same crap as Immunocal. George M. Carter You weren't paying attention to the "why" part...it costs that much because it is not the same as anything you can buy otherwise...and it is Immunical..however in Canada called HMS 90. You didn't answer my question about all the research I can read and the Dr's that are well known internationally for Immune research associated to the product you take. Or did the website say it is good..and you were happy with that? Your pretty hard on my product considering you don't have the facts about anything else. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >You weren't paying attention to the "why" part...it costs that much >because it is not the same as anything you can buy otherwise...and it is >Immunical..however in Canada called HMS 90. LOL...gosh, does calling it HMS90 make it all that more exciting and mysterious? Does it still turn into a cross between chewing gum and clay? >You didn't answer my question about all the research I can read and the >Dr's that are well known internationally for Immune research associated >to the product you take. Or did the website say it is good..and you were >happy with that? Your pretty hard on my product considering you don't >have the facts about anything else. I'm not about to talk about other products because I'm not about to spam, like you're doing. However, there is one abstract, below, that shows that Immunocrap ain't all that. I'm hard on your product because its use is couched in pseudoscientific claptrap to try to justify an outrageous price for a fraction of milk. George M. Carter ** Micke P, Beeh KM, Buhl R. Effects of long-term supplementation with whey proteins on plasma glutathione levels of HIV-infected patients. Eur J Nutr. 2002 Feb;41(1):12-8. Pulmonary Division III, Medical Department, Mainz University Hospital, Germany. p.micke@3-med.klinik.uni-mainz.de BACKGROUND: HIV infection is characterized by an enhanced oxidant burden and a systemic deficiency of the tripeptide glutathione (GSH), a major antioxidant. The semi-essential amino acid cysteine is the main source of the free sulfhydryl group of GSH and limits its synthesis. Whey proteins are rich in cysteine as well as in GSH precursor peptides. AIM OF THE STUDY: In order to evaluate the effects of whey supplementation on plasma GSH levels, HIV-infected patients were treated with whey proteins for a period of six months. METHODS: In a double blind clinical trial, 30 patients were randomized to a daily dose of 45 g whey proteins of either Protectamin (Fresenius Kabi, Germany) or Immunocal (Immunotec, Europe) for 2 weeks. Eighteen patients (16 male, 42 +/- 9.4 yr, 249 +/- 99 CD4+ lymphocytes/l) continued the trial with a daily dose of 45 g of Protectamin for six months. RESULTS: Pre-therapy, total plasma GSH levels (Protectamin: 1.92 +/- 0.6 microM; Immunocal: 1.99 +/- 0.9 microM) were less than normal (2.64 +/- 0.7 microM, p = 0.03). After two weeks of whey protein supplementation, plasma total GSH levels increased in the Protectamin group by 44 +/- 56% (2.79 +/- 1.1 microM, p = 0.004), while the difference in the Immunocal group did not reach significance (+24.5 +/- 59 %, 2.51 +/- 1.48 microM, p = 0.43). Consequently, all patients continuing the trial were openly switched to Protectamin. After six months, total GSH plasma levels were still significantly elevated compared to baseline (day 1: 1.95 +/- 0.8 microM vs. month 1: 2.18 +/- 0.8 microM, p = 0.19; month 3: 2.39 +/- 0.9 microM, p = 0.056; month 6: 2.47 +/- 0.8 microM, p = 0.033). Body weight, T-cell counts, and other clinical parameters did not change. The most common mild side effect was intestinal disturbance; severe adverse events did not occur. CONCLUSION: Supplementation with whey proteins persistently increased plasma glutathione levels in patients with advanced HIV-infection. The treatment was well tolerated. A larger long-term trial is clearly warranted to evaluate whether this positive influence on the glutathione metabolism translates into a more favorable course of the disease. > With respect to the value of things...I guess if you feel you would > rather pay $2/day for coffee and feel that $2/day is too much for your > immune system then I guess I am in the wrong place... Shame on you. Shame on YOU. That's preying on the fears of desparate people to make a buck. AND to try to get free advertising to do so. Your as bad as the cancer quacks. SHAME. ON. YOU. B/ Brian, Shame on me...your kidding. I haven't said anything here to cause fear. I have only introduced some facts that could make a difference. I thought this would be a group looking for facts that would make a difference. However you seem like you want to beat me for taking the time to point out a few things. See if I care...good luck..this is my last post here. By the way..the shame on you stuff still didn't answer why you so diligently protect the other cysteine products even though you can't produce a fraction of the research I can about mine. It is all about the money like you said and the truth is some people are too cheap to help themselves because they can't justify the money...but spend it elsewhere foolishly. Produce the facts on other Cysteine products that actually have research behind them with Dr's & PHd's otherwise you are all taking affordable placebos. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >Brian, > >Shame on me...your kidding. I haven't said anything here to cause fear. >I have only introduced some facts that could make a difference. To your wallet. f.ck you. People can buy better whey for much less. Believe me, I think the data are quite good on it. It is an intervention that could be made available globally. I use it. Not your brand of outrageously overpriced crap. And it's that kind of despicable profiteering--whether it's supplement sales or--albeit MUCH worse--pharma phucks--the result is the same. Greed kills. George M. Carter > Brian, > > Shame on me...your kidding. Not in the least. > I haven't said anything here to cause fear. Oh no.... just using someone's immune system as a hook. > I have only introduced some facts that could make a difference. As George said... to your wallet. I have a rare disability. I'm totally insensitive to market-speak, except it causes me blinding migraines when someone blats it. > I thought this would be a group looking for facts that would make a > difference. However you seem like you want to beat me for taking the > time to point out a few things. No, no one wanted to 'beat you' until you started the even harder sell. What was done was actually a civil discussion on the merits of the product you're attempting to get free ad space for. > See if I care...good luck..this is my last post here. Just like our pet farmboy's last post, I imagine. B/ Brian, As I said...I am simply asking for the link to a site where I can see Protectamin listed for sale, the info on the company that makes it..etc. I am more then interested to accept defeat and respect your point..however please show me the real product. So I can be educated. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com Hi All, I have found out why no one is telling me where to buy Protectamin. You can't buy it. I asked the Vice-President of Immunotec (John Moslon) to comment on this situation and here is his response: --------------------- This study was initiated to discredit Immunocal by a company with which we used to have a relationship. As per our contractual right we chose not to continue with them. This study goes against all our previous work ? see attached. The statistical process used is flawed. As such I would disregard it. In closing it is interesting that such a promising product was never launched onto the market by the said company. Regards John Molson Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com snip >As such I would disregard it. Of course he would. He's a crook. >Regards >John Molson He should go back to selling beer to lugnutz rather than ripping off people with cancer and AIDS. George M. Carter George, What a childish reply. Just tell me where I can buy Protectamin. That has been your only rebutle of any credibility. Now you can't even tell me where to buy it because you can't. The company in question wanted to have the marketing rights to Immunocal for Europe "FRESENIUS-KABI MEDICAL"..the deal went by the wayside when companies merged and they were dropped. Since they lost their oppotunity to market the product they twisted the research thinking they were going to launch Protectamin but never did. Now why wouldn't they want to sell such a great product? I have received extensive reseach which I will post soon discrediting the results. I want to review it carefully so I understand it clearly. By the way..on bankrupt.com I found this about the parent corportation for FRESENIOUS-KABI - I Checked and they both have the same exact address so it is the same company. Nice bunch..I trust their research. FRESENIUS MEDICAL: U.S. Unit Faces Criminal Investigation --------------------------------------------------------- The wholly owned subsidiary of Fresenius Medical Care AG, Fresenius Medical Care Holdings Inc., received on April 1, 2005 a subpoena from the U.S. Department of Justice, Eastern District of Missouri in St. Louis. The subpoena requires production of a broad range of documents relating to the Company's operations, including documents related to, among other things, clinical quality programs, business development activities, medical director compensation and physician relations, joint ventures and our anemia management program. The subpoena covers the period from December 1, 1996 through the present. The subpoena was issued in connection with a joint civil and criminal investigation of allegations against the Company. The Company intends to cooperate with the government's investigation. To the knowledge of the Company, the government has not initiated legal proceedings against the Company at this time, and it is not possible to predict whether proceedings might be initiated or when the investigation may be concluded. Counsel for the Company had an initial conversation with the United States Attorney's Office, Eastern District of Missouri, on Tuesday April 5, 2005 to begin discussions related to this investigation. The Company intends to meet with representatives of the government to review the government's priorities and the production of responsive documents. Ben Lipps, Chief Executive Officer of Fresenius Medical Care, commented: "We understand and respect that the government has the right and responsibility to investigate allegations or concerns. We have commented many times before on our pride in our global team's commitment to quality and compliance. In light of our system of internal controls and the procedures we follow under our corporate compliance program and the Corporate Integrity Agreement, I am confident of our position on these issues and other regulatory compliance matters. We look forward to reviewing these extensive compliance processes which we have adopted." Fresenius AG (Frankfurt Stock Exchange: FME, FME3) (NYSE: FMS, FMS-p), holds a majority interest in Fresenius Medical Care's ordinary capital. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >George, > >What a childish reply. Just tell me where I can buy Protectamin. That >has been your only rebutle of any credibility. Now you can't even tell >me where to buy it because you can't. Because dearest, I don't give a sh.t about Protectamin. OK...no point to this anymore. Protectamin was your big point about how our product was so highly priced and couldn't even stand up as good as Protectamin...which I presumed was much cheaper by the nature of your point..however it is non-existant. Which makes your point non-existant. I guess we can drop this since there really isn't anything left to the argument other then you think our product is too expensive although it is the only one proven to work from any research by brand that is currently available. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com > I guess we can drop this since there really isn't anything left to the > argument other then you think our product is too expensive although it > is the only one proven to work from any research by brand that is > currently available. BS. The "by brand" wasn't part of the original statement. It was that whey-based products are more achievable at a less expensive price. B/ Sure...I can sell you some of the drippings from cheese curd really cheap if you want. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com > Sure...I can sell you some of the drippings from cheese curd really > cheap if you want. Anything to make a buck off the ill and/or desparate, huh? B/ Brian, You sit quiet don't say much all through it and let GM do all the arguing and then when you figure he has nothing left to debate you throw in the money thing. It is possible that you spend more money then you need to trying to save money because you waist it on cheaper products that are not proven. In regards to the ill thing..that is a pathetic comment. I have spent thousands of dollars in health food stores trying to deal with my own health issues. I don't have HIV but I do have things that interfere wiht my every day life like extreme dissyness..Dr.'s can't figure it out. Irritable Bowl Syndrome..Dr's can't fix it.. which is a real drag. High blood pressure..they want me to take drugs. Extreme anxiety at times..again they want me to take drugs. Allergic reactions to things that wouldn't bother you probably and more. So don't give me that story about making money off the ill anymore. I found a product, it makes me feel better, the research is better then anything I have ever seen in my life and I have checked into almost everything..so I am excited about it and yes I do want to sell it for many reasons. Yes, one of those reasons is because I have to make a living just like you and I would rather do it by helping people with something I believe in. I thought the research on this product and HIV results were outstanding so I brought the information here. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com > Brian, > > You sit quiet don't say much all through it and let GM do all the > arguing and then when you figure he has nothing left to debate you throw > in the money thing. Google on "attack the messenger." Sorry, your story doesn't impress me. btw, weren't you dropping all this? Or are you as hypotcritical as our pet farmboy? B/ Brian, I respond to people so if you stop initiating a need for a reply then I am done. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com > Brian, > > I respond to people so if you stop initiating a need for a reply then I > am done. "But MAWWWWwWMMMMMMMMM... he MADE me do it!!!" You were done the minute the minute you started preying on the ill and desparate. B/ Well Brian you have pretty much summed up everything with that comment. Anyone with intelligence will see how bizare your behaviour is..and each time you post that crap it keeps raising my info to the top again for everyone to read...so thanks..keep it up. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >Well Brian you have pretty much summed up everything with that comment. >Anyone with intelligence will see how bizare your behaviour is..and each >time you post that crap it keeps raising my info to the top again for >everyone to read...so thanks..keep it up. LOL. You think this is good for business? No wonder Immunocrap's sales are plummeting. They aren't plummeting actually..they are sky rocketing...company is doing over $30 million/yr in sales..built a new 35,000 SqFt building and are debt free...hmmm...sounds like there are a few people out there who believe the product works. By the way thanks for taking me to the top of the newsgroup again. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com > Well Brian you have pretty much summed up everything with that comment. > Anyone with intelligence will see how bizare your behaviour is..and each > time you post that crap it keeps raising my info to the top again for > everyone to read...so thanks..keep it up. You say a spotlight...others would say a target. How many sick people have you fleeced today? B/ Back to the top of the newsgroup I go again Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >Back to the top of the newsgroup I go again You win! top of the Immunocrap shitpile! > Back to the top of the newsgroup I go again Weren't you leaving? Didn't you say you were finished with this group? Certainly a person who wants to make money off the ill and desparate wouldn't be a hypocrite as well? btw, you might want to research "Briebart Index" for your childish mouthings about "top of the group." B/ "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message > You were done the minute the minute you started preying on the ill and > desparate. Must you lisp in print ? > "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message >> >> You were done the minute the minute you started preying on the ill and >> desparate. > > Must you lisp in print ? I don't have the same issues you do. B/ "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message > > "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I don't have the same issues you do. the minute the minute,......... ah where was I,............ oh yeah, ill and (desperate) That is the effects of aids not pussy so why would you have the same issues as I ? > "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ill and (desperate) That is the effects of aids not pussy so why > would you have the same issues as I ? So, when you lie to yourself who's the one getting deceived? B/ "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message > > ...the minute the minute,.. > > So, when you lie to yourself who's the one getting deceived? I don't have to lie to myself, or anyone else for that matter. Here I am, open and above board for anyone to disagree with. My opinions are stated clear enough even for you to understand. I don't hide behind childish phrases and make believe lines. If it helps you sleep at night to live in denial, kewl. Just don't pretend others have to live that way too. Brian, I have no idea what you are talking about at this point. You are clipping out quotes it seems and commenting on them however they are your quotes and not mine. I am done here. It Doesn't matter to me at this point if you are not interested and I don't want to waist any more time with name calling and foolishness. I take things seriously. I thought I was bringing info here that would be usefull...you say I only wanted to make money and prey on ill people. If you believe that is what I am all about then really...I am done here. I wish you luck and good health. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com > I take things seriously. I thought I was bringing info here that would > be usefull... and line your pocket and free advertising to boot. > If you believe that is what I am all about then really...I am done here. Really? I don't think so. B/ > I don't hide behind childish phrases and make believe lines. > If it helps you sleep at night to live in denial, kewl. Hey, I'm not the one pretending to be straight. B/ "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message > > I don't hide behind childish phrases and make believe lines. > > If it helps you sleep at night to live in denial, kewl. > > Hey, I'm not the one pretending to be straight. Another good example, but it really wasn't necessary. Brian, Shame on me...your kidding. I haven't said anything here to cause fear. I have only introduced some facts that could make a difference. I thought this would be a group looking for facts that would make a difference. However you seem like you want to beat me for taking the time to point out a few things. See if I care...good luck..this is my last post here. By the way..the shame on you stuff still didn't answer why you so diligently protect the other cysteine products even though you can't produce a fraction of the research I can about mine. It is all about the money like you said and the truth is some people are too cheap to help themselves because they can't justify the money...but spend it elsewhere foolishly. Produce the facts on other Cysteine products that actually have research behind them with Dr's & PHd's otherwise you are all taking affordable placebos. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >And of course in regards to the MLM aspect, you can go to an importer >and see that you can buy a tool for $1 from Taiwan that the hardware [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >approximately $1 gets retailed for about $20...now if that isn't worse >then what you are describing about MLM I don't know what is. You can't excuse something bad by pointing out something worse. SignatureDavid Canzi "I am not denying anything." -- Celia Farber OK...your Cysteine products are placebos with no Cysteine value in them because they have not been proven in any research..is that better by making a direct comparison to an unreal ripoff? Much better now..it is very relavent. You buy a supplement for $20 that has no proof of any kind. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >OK...your Cysteine products are placebos with no Cysteine value in them Your sh.t doesn't work that well and it turns into f.ck gummy cement when mixed. GM, Your funny. I have to admit you seem to have a sense of humour. I read the information about the research done with Protectamin and Immunocal. They both had very stong effects however Protectamin out performed Immunocal by quite a bit in that study. That seems very impressive. I tried diligently to find Protectamin and it seems to be made or was made by Nature's Way however every link on the net associated to the research or product seems to be down. I can not find a place where I can actually get a price and read more about the company that makes it. Please provide me with a link to this supper product. Otherwise the research only used these two products...very impressive from Immunocal/HMS 90's perspective because it did work and they did narrow their research down to the two best possibilities. Now I just can't find out how to buy the number 1 - Protectamin In regards to Cysteine and Cystine. It is my understanding that 2 molecules of Cysteine bond to form Cystine and likewise Cystine when heated cleaves apart into 2 molecules of Cysteine...if you get Cysteine in the blood stream before it gets into the cells it is somewhat toxic and causes nauseau..etc. However if you can get Cystine to deliver iteself all the way to the cells then it will cleave apart to Cysteine in the cell where it is needed. In the process of heat or humidity most Whey products which have high levels of Cystine become products full of Cysteine..even while they sit in your cupboards or while you are blending them. Athough I am a distributor of this product you have to admit I am trying to be as informative and open as possible and this dialogue is likely helpfull to others in the group who are not familiar with Cystine/Cystine and how it helps creat the very much needed Glutathione in your body. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com Hi Again, With further investigation about this Protectamin I found the real report on the study not your slanted one - here it is from AEGIS - Aids Education Global Information System - http://www.aegis.com/news/catie/2001/CATE-N20010504.html Looks like Immunocal/HMS 90 is highley researched, respected and is 2nd to none. At best equal to one other product if I can find it. Where did you get your article from? Nature's Way? LOL ------------------------------------------------- Whey to go! German study finds whey protein supplement boosts antioxidants Sean Hosein CATIE News: May 22, 2001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- (What's new) The immune system needs a large amount of high-quality protein every day to perform repairs and make new T-cells, hormones and antioxidant enzymes. These enzymes help to protect cells from the damaging effects of highly active molecules called "free-radicals." Research suggests that HIV infection increases the demand for antioxidants, a demand that the body is unable to meet on its own. To increase the body's ability to make antioxidants, researchers have been conducting studies on people with HIV, giving them supplements of high-quality protein called "whey protein." Made from cow's milk, whey protein is a combination of proteins that are easy to digest. For their two-week study, German researchers enrolled 30 HIV positive subjects (5 female, 25 male) who had an average of 221 CD4+ cells. Subjects took 15 grams of whey protein powder three times daily, for a total of 45 grams per day. They mixed the powder in milk, yoghurt or buttermilk. Researchers gave subjects one of two brands of whey protein: Immunocal (made by Immunotech in Vandreuil, Quebec, Canada) Protectamin (made by Fresenius Kabi in Bad Hamburg, Germany) When the results of both treatments were analysed together, researchers found that on average, levels of the body's major antioxidant, GSH (glutathione), increased by about 32% after two weeks in all subjects. The study was not designed to find out if one brand of whey protein was better than the other. Long-term studies are needed to confirm and extend these findings. Notes on brand names Given the many brands of protein powder available, choosing one is not easy. We encourage interested readers to develop a relationship with knowledgeable staff at your local health food store. These people can answer your questions about different brands and prices of whey protein supplements. European Journal of Clinical Investigation 2001;31(2):171-178 20000522 CATE-N20010504 Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >Hi Again, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Looks like Immunocal/HMS 90 is highley researched, respected and is 2nd >to none. LOL. In your fantasy world. I know Sean. He did NOT say anything of the sort. Indeed, as you can see, he wrote: "Given the many brands of protein powder available, choosing one is not easy. We encourage interested readers to develop a relationship with knowledgeable staff at your local health food store. These people can answer your questions about different brands and prices of whey protein supplements." The abstract I posted was from PubMed. It is not the same as the one Sean reviewed but rather a later one: Micke P, Beeh KM, Buhl R. Effects of long-term supplementation with whey proteins on plasma glutathione levels of HIV-infected patients. Eur J Nutr. 2002 Feb;41(1):12-18. George M. Carter >------------------------------------------------- > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >20000522 >CATE-N20010504 GM, Lets see the link to where I can buy Protectamin? Still don't see the specks on this product or where I can buy it? I can see I should only deal with one issue at at time here so I can ensure to at least get this question answered. Bill Fligg Dynamic Enterprises Ltd. www.naturallydynamic.com >GM, > >Your funny. I have to admit you seem to have a sense of humour. Gosh golly, I'm so flattered and overwhelmed that your august personage has deined to recognize my sense of humor! >I read the information about the research done with Protectamin and >Immunocal. They both had very stong effects however Protectamin out >performed Immunocal by quite a bit in that study. You bet: "After two weeks of whey protein supplementation, plasma total GSH levels increased in the Protectamin group by 44 +/- 56% (2.79 +/- 1.1 microM, p = 0.004), while the difference in the Immunocal group did not reach significance (+24.5 +/- 59 %, 2.51 +/- 1.48 microM, p = 0.43)." >Please provide me with a link to this supper product. Nope. Not interested in selling or promoting protectamin. Point is, if intracellular gluathione production is what you want, N-acetylcysteine works fine. So does alpha lipoic acid, silymarin and probably even hot-processed whey. I use a cold-processed form. In fact, I use all those agents. Don't need Immunocrap or its MLM-boosted pricing scam. George M. Carter |
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