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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2005S. African AIDS Expert Urges Circumcision
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050924/ap_on_he_me/south_africa_aids Article text: S. African AIDS Expert Urges Circumcision By CLARE NULLIS, Associated Press Writer Sat Sep 24, 7:21 PM ET CAPE TOWN, South Africa - A South African AIDS expert Saturday advocated male circumcision as the best available "vaccine" against the virus in his country, where an estimated 6 million people are infected and more than 600 people die every day. Francois Venter told a congress of health activists in the Treatment Action Campaign that a recent survey in the Soweto township indicated that circumcised men were 65 percent less likely to contract AIDS than those who had not been circumcised. "We dream of a vaccine which has this efficacy," said Venter, clinical director of the Reproductive Health and HIV Research at the University of Witwatersrand. "The results are phenomenal." The association between circumcision and a reduced risk of HIV was noted as early as 1987, when Dr. William Cameron of the University of Manitoba in Canada reported findings from a study in Kenya. Some researchers in early studies have said they believe cells in the foreskin may be particularly susceptible to infection. Venter urged the Treatment Action Campaign, an influential movement of 13,000 activists, to consider promoting circumcision as a vital prevention tool, given that existing methods were failing to slow the spread of the epidemic. South Africa has the highest number of people living with HIV/AIDS in the world. Nearly 30 percent of pregnant women are infected, according to a health department survey published in July, and in the hardest hit province of KwaZuluNatal this rises to 41 percent. The disease is now one of the main causes of death among young adults and infants. Some traditional communities in South Africa practice circumcision, but there are calls for tighter medical controls to limit health risks from blunt and contaminated instruments. "We don't want our men to go to the chop shop but have medical circumcision," said Zackie Achmat, an AIDS activist who said the congress - which meets every two years - would debate whether to encourage mass circumcision. Achmat, who is HIV positive, said much more needed to be done on prevention. He said that even though government distribution of condoms increased from one million in 1994 to 40 million in 2004, this still only amounted to 35 condoms per sexually active male per year. He said that 73 percent of young people without the virus believed that they were not at risk of catching, and 62 percent of young people with the virus also believed there was no risk. Achmat criticized the government's record on treatment. Of the 500,000 people who need AIDS therapy, only 76,000 are currently receiving it through the public health sector. The World Health Organization has singled out slow progress in South Africa as one of the main reasons it will likely miss its target of putting 3 million people worldwide on therapy by the end of this year. "We are dying. We are still dying," he said. Achmat has for years attacked the government for doing too little too late against the AIDS epidemic. In a sign of the mutual antagonism, health ministry officials refused invitations to attend the congress. "President Thabo Mbeki tragically still shows symptoms of AIDS denialism," said Achmat. Mbeki reputedly doubts the link between HIV and AIDS. Health Minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang has repeatedly voiced doubts about the safety and efficacy of antiretrovirals, instead stressing the benefits of a diet heavy in garlic, lemon and olive oil. The Soweto study, was conducted by French researchers between 2002 and 2005 with more than 3,000 healthy, sexually active males between 18 and 24. About half the volunteers were circumcised by medical professionals, and the rest remained uncircumcised. All the men received counseling on AIDS prevention. But after 21 months, 51 members of the uncircumcised group had contracted HIV, the AIDS virus, while only 18 members of the circumcised group had gotten the disease. The World Health Organization and UNAIDS welcomed the results of the study, released at a conference in Brazil in July, but says that more trials should be conducted before circumcision can be recommended as a preventive method. A study conducted by the U.S. National Health Institute involving 5,000 individuals is now under way in Uganda. CAPE TOWN, South Africa - A South African AIDS expert Saturday advocated male circumcision as the best available "vaccine" against the virus in his country, where an estimated 6 million people are infected and more than 600 people die every day. So, here again, the question begs to be asked: How is it that the only continent in the entire world where the heterosexual pandemic of AIDS occurs is Africa? HIV has spread worldwide now, right? What behavior are the African people engaging in that causes HIV to spread like wildfire among heterosexuals much like it spreads among homosexuals in the rest of the world? How could poverty and malnourishment be such a powerful aphrodisiac? -Paul Whiting > How is it that the only continent in the entire world where the > heterosexual pandemic of AIDS occurs is Africa? Your world map must be quite small. B/ "How is it that the only continent in the entire world where the heterosexual pandemic of AIDS occurs is Africa? Your world map must be quite small." Okay, Brian, where else in the world is heterosexual pandemic of AIDS spreading with anywhere near the same ferocity as it is in Africa? Name your continent... Paulee, to be fair the orthodox lads they have been taught to believe that Asia, and particularly China and India are about to befall a horrid epidemic -- driven of course by inaccurate tests for antibodies and self-interested western calculations of impending doom and profits for BIg Pharma. Granted poverty, drug abuse, and the same old illnesses explain this "heterosexual transmission" outside Africa but we are taught that Asians are dying because of hetero sex just like Africans. Estimates by India and China are often hinted at underestimating the dire threat. Man haven't we been hearing the whole sex=death thing for hundreds of years now. We didn't stop having it for fear of hell now they are using fear of AIDS. Goodness the birds do it the bees do it and I'm sure as heck gonna do it I sure wish they were not hurting people with chemo that need clean water and food. God help them > Man haven't we been hearing the whole sex=death thing for hundreds of >years now. That is NOT the message. Sex is fine. But sexual activity CAN be associated with disease. Or do you think syphilis, gonorrhea and chlamydia have not been proven to exist or cause disease? >"But sexual activity CAN be associated with disease." Absolutely, Mr. Carter. Driving a car or playing football also carry certain risks. But does that discourage anybody from engaging in those activities? What's so terrible about contracting Syphillis, Gonorrhea or Chlamidia? Right! They were not bad enough (too easy to get rid of), so they had to invent AIDS to be able to scare people again. >>"But sexual activity CAN be associated with disease." > >Absolutely, Mr. Carter. Driving a car or playing football also carry >certain risks. But does that discourage anybody from engaging in those >activities? Nope. That is reserved for religious fundamentalists to exhort others to do, hypocritically fail to do so themselves, and for the flock to ignore. >What's so terrible about contracting Syphillis, Gonorrhea or Chlamidia? I see. You ENJOY these diseases, yes? That may explain some of your neurological responses evidenced here in your writings.... >"I see. You ENJOY these diseases, yes? That may explain some of your neurological responses evidenced here in your writings...." No-ooo, I don't enjoy them. Never did. But whenever you have one, you just hook up with someone who has the same thing, for some nooky. Until your private physician drives the nasty bugs away. But shucks, I get colds too, now and then. Don't enjoy the either. But fortunately, they are cause by a virus, so they go away all by themselves. Thanks Robin. At least someone doesn't wear a blindfold the whole time. I haven't got all the references immediately to hand, but there is a burgeoning HIV epidemic in other continents outside subsaharan Africa which is sexually driven in the main. A few observations 1. The African HIV epidemic is not just heterosexally driven. remember the furore over the paper in Int J STD and AIDS suggesting most of it was through contaminated needles? (Even then, the authors said heterosexual spread was about 40%, though many authorities have since climbed into that fray to show it is around 70%) 2. There is a strange lack of HIV/AIDS in the poorest countries of the world. For instance, Afghanistan, ravaged by malnourishment and malaria, has precious little HIV. Some of the countries in the sahara region or north of it like Sudan/Ethiopia have minimal HIV, but are impoverished, and have high incidence of TB and other disease. If AIDS is so selective for malnutrition, why is it so choosy as to which starving children it seems to affect? 3. We are told by denialists that South Africans are starving and suffer malaria - that is why they are dying of "AIDS". Strangely, the HIV burden in SA is mainly an urban phenomenon, wiping out hundreds of nurses, teachers, accountants etc off the map each week. SA is one of the richest, if not the richest African nation. Pockets of malnutrition exist, but not on an Ethiopian/Sudanese scale. And malaria only affects those in the far North East of KwaZulu Natal - 95% of the country is malaria free. But some will just ignore all these inconvenient facts, and pretend HIV does not exist. "I haven't got all the references immediately to hand, but there is a burgeoning HIV epidemic in other continents outside subsaharan Africa which is sexually driven in the main." Okay, David, then explain how the population of Africa has been *increasing* if the continent is being decimated by "HIV." "The African HIV epidemic is not just heterosexally driven. remember the furore over the paper in Int J STD and AIDS suggesting most of it was through contaminated needles?" So Africans can afford recreational drugs? >So Africans can afford recreational drugs? Some can of course, but they are talking about unsterile needles used/reused in medical care. You'd know this if you bothered to use more than one neurone before you rush to your keyboard and if you posessed even some basic knowlege on the subject under discussion. "Some can of course, but they are talking about unsterile needles used/reused in medical care." Okay, what percentage of all "HIV" transmission can be attributed to unsterile needle use? And is "HIV" really being spread predominantly by African healthcare workers, rather than by heterosexual sex? Thus, does this practice explain the rampant spread of "HIV" in Africa or is AIDS still considered a sexually transmitted disease? >"Some can of course, but they are talking about unsterile needles used/reused in medical care." Oh come off it, Master David! Why don't you borrow a neuron somewhere and try to start a thinking process! The whole concept of non-sterile needles is ridiculous in itself, even in developed countries. What was IN those syringes in the first place is what matters. In the poor parts of Africa, we don't have to consider drugs and needles at all. If you want to define "AIDS" as a depressed immunity, then we need not look far: There are numerous causes for that condition. And we certainly don't need to invent a virus for that. (Or do you believe in the .357Magnum Virus?) >In the poor parts of Africa, we don't have to consider drugs and needles at all. I never said I supported this theory as a significant method of spreading HIV. It is in fact a theory of Gisselquist, whose pronouncements on the topic are much lauded by dissidents. It goes something like this: Orthodox: HIV is mainly spread through sex. Gisselquist: No- it's through reused needles. Dissident: Yay! Yay! through needles yes! The orthodox is wrong! Orthodox: So you obviously accept HIV exists, then? Dissident: Um...Er....I'll just be a minute - I think I left the kettle on and I have to go check. You still crashing cars into brick walls, Iconoclaster? >"You still crashing cars into brick walls, Iconoclaster?" Hm, yes. Guess I won't be doing that much longer. The brick walls are all crumbling. P.S. I never heard of Gisselquist. But have you heard of the .357Magnum Virus? >"There is a strange lack of HIV/AIDS in the poorest countries of the world. For instance, Afghanistan, ravaged by malnourishment and malaria, has precious little HIV. Some of the countries in the sahara region or north of it like Sudan/Ethiopia have minimal HIV, but are impoverished, and have high incidence of TB and other disease. If AIDS is so selective for malnutrition, why is it so choosy as to which starving children it seems to affect?" Are you aspiring to be a politician, Master David? Even I am surprised that anybody could have the balls to write this. You know as well as I do that these countrie have minimal "HIV" but have high incidence of TB and malaria BECAUSE TB AND MALARIA HAVE NOT YET BEEN RENAMED HIV/AIDS THERE! Give the HIV-goons a small chance, and they will make sure the incidence of HIV/AIDS is going up sharply. It's not very likely that chance will materialize, because these are all Muslim countries. And they are not eager to let empire builders from outside change their society. South Africa was a far better candidate, were it not for the brave opposition from president MBeki and his minister of health, Manto Tshabalala MSimang. Yes, SA is the richest African country. That's why Big Pharma sees a great market there. >You know as well as I do that these countrie have minimal "HIV" but have high incidence of TB and malaria BECAUSE TB AND MALARIA HAVE NOT YET BEEN RENAMED HIV/AIDS THERE! I quote this just to ensure others can see your stupid utterances for what they are worth. Despite some areas of overlap, the demography of HIV/AIDS does not match that of malnutrition, or malaria, or TB. Your logic is about as consistent as saying malaria does not exist, it is just TB renamed. >brave opposition from president MBeki and his minister of health, Manto Tshabalala MSimang. History has already reserved a place for these people, right next to Stalin and Hitler. > >You know as well as I do that these countrie have minimal "HIV" but have > >high incidence of TB and malaria BECAUSE TB AND MALARIA HAVE NOT YET BEEN [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > History has already reserved a place for these people, right next to > Stalin and Hitler. Nor does the malnutrition idea explain why AIDS symptoms have not been seen prior to the 1980's during periods of famine around the world. Nor does Claster ever deal with the inconsistency of his claims about AIDS being a disease of malnutrition in the poor nations of the world and a disease of life style/drug abuse in the rich nations of the world. Does he believe there are no malnourished people in first world countries? Does he believe that there is no use of street drugs and or antibiotics in the poor nations of the world? How does he explain the poor, drug addicted, malnourished, antibiotic abusers were ever in the world they appear who do not experience AIDS and are not HIV infected, while those with the exact same life styles who do exhibit AIDS are HIV positive? Well of course he can't explain any of the above and will wave his magic wand and say it is all irrelevant because trust him HIV has never been isolated and does not exist and after all he is an expert and he is telling you this so you best toe the line and believe him. About the only thing that seems to ring true about Iconclaster is that he was educated in Austria and picked up the need for authority figures that seems to be a little more common in that part of the world then it is elsewhere. But I even have doubts about that claim because his use of the English language does not show any European traits and I would expect some from someone who spent there adult life in Continental Europe. Gary Stein Indeed, whenever the dissidents lies are exposed for what they are, whether in microbiology, demography, epidemiology, clinical medicine etc, they always switch tack to their final pitiful cop-out: HIV is non-existent. You do know that Dr. Gallo was "convicted" of medical fraud for all the "monkey business" that went on during his great HIV research, right? That does not excuse an HIV dissident or anyone else of such actions but is a call for a reality chech to me >"Indeed, whenever the dissidents lies are exposed for what they are, whether in microbiology, demography, epidemiology, clinical medicine etc, they always switch tack to their final pitiful cop-out: HIV is non-existent." Maybe because there's too much demography (or is it demagoguery?) in your microbiology, and too much epidemiology in your clinical medicine. > >"Indeed, whenever the dissidents lies are exposed for what they are, > whether in microbiology, demography, epidemiology, clinical medicine [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Maybe because there's too much demography (or is it demagoguery?) in your > microbiology, and too much epidemiology in your clinical medicine. Instead of being glib why not address the issues I brought forward in my post Claster? Are you unable to or is it that your just not going to bothered by the inconsistencies of your position on HIV and AIDS. Gary Stein "Re: S. African AIDS Expert Urges Circumcision" Good God even the mainstream folks should not be able to read this without a giggle I mean really give me some "AIDS Experts" *cough* like this and a few hundred billion and I will prove there is a God and his lieutenant the tooth fairy is responsible for the spread of AIDS. I will even patient a tooth fairy detection device and some magic fairy dust to shoo her away *I can see it now..* Oh ya and "pillow condoms" all around! Gary Stein Wrote: > Instead of being glib why not address the issues I brought forward i > my > post Claster? Are you unable to or is it that your just not going to > bothered by the inconsistencies of your position on HIV and AIDS. > > Gary Stein What were the issues again, Mr. Stein? Afer you, your buddies, and th whole Talkabouthealth forum ran away, it took some time to find you. But I'm so glad we're together again. And I'll be most happy to addre all the issues you'll bring forward, including any inconsistencies in m position - if you ever find any. Iconoclaste -- Iconoclaste >"Nor does the malnutrition idea explain why AIDS symptoms have not been seen prior to the 1980's during periods of famine around the world." Well, who was looking? It's hard to find something when you're not looking for it. Nobody rich and important gives a damn about malnutriton and disease in Africa. But now, with AIDS... there's money to be made. And the exploding population of the African continent can be cut down at the same time. >"Nor does Claster ever deal with the inconsistency of his claims about AIDS being a disease of malnutrition in the poor nations of the world and a disease of life style/drug abuse in the rich nations of the world." What's so inconsistent about it? Unless you believe that AIDS (all 29 flavors of it) can have only one cause. And before you come (again) with the argument that all the 29 flavors of AIDS all boil down to one phenomenon: Depressed levels of CD4 cells: Immune deficiency can also have multiple causes. But HIV is not one of them. >"How does he explain the poor, drug addicted, malnourished, antibiotic abusers were ever in the world they appear who do not experience AIDS and are not HIV infected, while those with the exact same life styles who do exhibit AIDS are HIV positive?" Not hard to explain. Human beings are not clones of each other. They react differently to the same conditions. Some are stronger than others. Some die at an early age of cardiovascular disease or cancer, others live to a ripe old age without any health problems. Of Winston Churchill it was known that he drank quantities of alcohol that would have sent others to an early grave. Besides, he always smoked those big cigars... It's also known that some unfortunate souls succumb in a short time to a regimen of ARVs, while others may live on for years. But the example you give, malnourished drug addicts who over-use antibiotics, really don't have much chance to live long. They are in a "risk group" and are tested and tested again, until they test positive. Then they are finished off with antiretrovirals. >"About the only thing that seems to ring true about Iconclaster is that he was educated in Austria and picked up the need for authority figures that seems to be a little more common in that part of the world then it is elsewhere. But I even have doubts about that claim because his use of the English language does not show any European traits and I would expect some from someone who spent there adult life in Continental Europe. Sorry, wrong all the way. I was not educated in Austria, and I have absolutely no use for authority figures (Always fought them). My use of the English language reflects the 27 years I spent in the U.S. and Puerto Rico. "They don't speak English in England" Carter Brown >"Despite some areas of overlap, the demography of HIV/AIDS does not match that of malnutrition, or malaria, or TB." You oversimplify this point, Master David. You leave out one very important factor: Money. It's not enough for an African country to have hig levels of malnutrition, TB or malaria, there also should be money, to pay Big pharma for their delightful weapons of mass eradication. Otherwise this whole business of "saving lives" would not be worth the effort. South Africa fits the bill very nicely. Fortunately they still have a president who can stop the genocide which you are lauding. "pauleewhiting" <pauleewhiting@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote... > How is it that the only continent in the entire world where the > heterosexual pandemic of AIDS occurs is Africa? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > like wildfire among heterosexuals much like it spreads among homosexuals > in the rest of the world? I've wondered the same thing. In the early years of the epidemic the gay activists were insisting that they were just the proverbial canaries in the coal mine, that it would soon spread like wildfire among the straight population, yet it never occurred. In just about every Western country I can think of the virus is largely confined to the homosexual population (aside from IV drug users of course). And even in the West the small numbers of heterosexual cases seem to be confined to people of African descent, in fact Haitians made up a significant number of early U.S. cases for reasons we still don't understand and the mostly-black Carribean is a hotbed of infection. Could it be that Africans are more susceptible to the HIV virus? I realize it is politically taboo to discuss such things, but while white people are more susceptible to skin cancer, blacks could be more susceptible to certain viruses. Cultural differences in Africa don't explain why Magic Johnson contracted it heterosexually (so he claims), so perhaps there is a biological reason. I also thought that it might be a different viral strain, but then U.S. blacks seems to have the same strain that infects U.S. whites and they still suffer a higher heterosexual infection rate. I have (hahahahahaha!) a lot of trouble (heeheeheeheehee!!) writing this post, because (HAW! HAW! HAW!) the subject is so utterly ridiculous. The barbaric and slightly perverse practice of circumcision has been in existence for a long time. Obviously there are still people who will go to any length to force it on innocent victims. Here in Europe, we don't indulge in such mutilation. If people over here are dropping dead with AIDS, I'm not aware of it. Just a question (always nice to educate yourself): How does your HIV tell the difference between a permanently exposed glans and one where the foreskin is rolled up during intercourse? This whole idea is so insane that I'm really very anxious to know what "scientific" explanation the orthodoxy will come up with this time (Hahahaha!) <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZNfox000' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif' alt='ROTFL' border=0></a> > I have (hahahahahaha!) a lot of trouble (heeheeheeheehee!!) writing this > post, because (HAW! HAW! HAW!) the subject is so utterly ridiculous. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "scientific" explanation the orthodoxy will come up with this time > (Hahahaha!) Why does that sound like nervous laughter? Instead of a childish theatrical display why not simply seek the scientific explanation? Below is the explanation of the infection mechanism from two studies and the effect of circumcision on reducing the rate of infection of HIV in transmissions from female to male is: "Male circumcision is equivalent to a vaccine with a 63% efficacy." Impact of male circumcision on the female-to-male transmission of HIV http://www.ias-2005.org/planner/Abstracts.aspx?AID=2675 =============== Comparative investigation of Langerhans' cells and potential receptors for HIV in oral, genitourinary and rectal epithelia. Hussain LA, Lehner T. Division of Immunology, United Medical School, Guy's Hospital, London. Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is commonly transmitted, during homosexual and heterosexual intercourse, through the rectal and cervicovaginal mucosa, foreskin and urethral epithelia. However, there is uncertainty about HIV transmission through the oral mucosa by oral sex. We have carried out a comparative immunohistological investigation of primate oral, cervicovaginal, foreskin, urethral and rectal epithelia for potential HIV receptors. We investigated epithelial tissues for CD4 glycoprotein, which is the principal receptor for HIV, Fc receptors of IgG for binding HIV-IgG antibody complexes, and HLA class II, which might enable HIV-bound CD4+ cells to gain access to the epithelial cells. CD4 glycoprotein was not found in oral, foreskin, urethral, vaginal or rectal epithelial cells, although CD4+ mononuclear cells were present in the lamina propria of each epithelium. Fc gamma II and Fc gamma III receptors were found in urethral, endocervical and rectal epithelia, and Fc gamma III and Fc gamma I receptors in the foreskin. However, Fc gamma receptors were not found in oral epithelium (buccal, labial, lingual or palatal) and only Fc gamma III receptors were detected in the gingival epithelial cells. HLA class II antigen was also not detected in foreskin, oral or rectal epithelium, but it was expressed by endocervical cells from most human specimens and in male urethral epithelia of non-human male primates. Langerhans' cells were found in all epithelia except those of the urethra and rectum, and they can express CD4 glycoprotein, Fc gamma receptors and HLA class II antigen. The mean number of Langerhans' cells expressing CD4 in the upper third of oral epithelium was significantly lower compared with vaginal epithelium or foreskin. The HIV-binding V1 domain of CD4 was significantly decreased in Langerhans' cells present in oral compared with vaginal epithelium. The results suggest that the foreskin in uncircumcised men and the cervicovaginal epithelium in females might become infected via the CD4+ Langerhans' cells. However, urethral infection might be mediated by HIV-antibody complexes binding to urethral epithelial Fc gamma receptors. The paucity of Langerhans' cells expressing the V1 domain of CD4, the absence of Fc gamma receptors, and a lack of expression of HLA class II antigens in most oral epithelial cells, argue against transmission of HIV through the normal intact oral mucosa. PMID: 7558138 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7 558138&dopt=Abstract =========================================== BIOLOGIC MECHANISMS OF HIV INFECTION OF HUMAN FORESKIN: IMPLICATIONS FOR TRANSMISSION Carlos R Estrada*, Dennis A Pessis, Antonio H Chaviano, Bruce K Patterson, Alan Landay, Joan N Siegel, Zareefa Flener, Robert C Bailey, Chicago, IL Introduction and Objectives: Epidemiologic evidence indicates a protective effect of circumcision against HIV-1 infection in men. The biological mechanisms by which the foreskin increases HIV susceptibility are unknown. This study assessed the susceptibility of human foreskin to HIV-1 infection through quantification in foreskin tissue of major HIV target cells, detection of coreceptors, and through ex vivo exposure of foreskin tissue to HIV-1 in organotypic culture. Methods: We evaluated 8 pediatric and 6 adult foreskins with and without a history of infection. T-cells (CD4+), macrophages (CD68+), and Langerhan's cells (LC)(CD1a+) were quantified using immunohistochemistry and image analysis. Cells expressing the HIV-1 co-receptors CCR5 and CXCR4 were quantified using 2-color immunofluorescence and image analysis. Foreskin tissue biopsies grown in organotypic culture were infected ex vivo with cell-free HIV-1 and the phenotype of specific target cells infected was determined using simultaneous immunophenotyping/ultrasensitive in situ hybridization. We compared the quantity of HIV-1 DNA copies in foreskin tissue with cervical biopsy controls infected in vitro with HIV-1. Results: Compared to cervical tissue, high proportions of CD4 T-cells, macrophages and LCs were found in foreskin tissue of pediatric and adult foreskin, with higher proportion in adults. Tissues contained cells that expressed predominantly the CCR5 HIV-1 coreceptor compared to CXCR4 expression. CD4+ T-cells and LCs in the inner, mucosal surface of the foreskin had a 7-fold greater susceptibility to HIV-1 infection than did cells in cervical tissue infected under the same conditions. Conclusions: Increased risk of HIV-1 infection in uncircumcised men is likely caused by the presence in foreskin of large numbers of HIV-1 target cells, especially T-cells and LCs, expressing primarily CCR5. Since uncircumcised men are likely at greater biological risk of heterosexual HIV-1 acquisition, male circumcision should be considered as an additional HIV protection strategy. The development of topically active agents capable of blocking HIV binding sites and that can be applied to the penis or vagina should proceed. http://aua02.agora.com/planner/displayabstract.asp?presentationid=2429 >> Just a question (always nice to educate yourself): How does your HIV tell >> the difference between a permanently exposed glans and one where the >> foreskin is rolled up during intercourse? >> This whole idea is so insane that I'm really very anxious to know what >> "scientific" explanation the orthodoxy will come up with this time >> (Hahahaha!) Well I read quite some time ago that the foreskin contains some sort of cell that contains receptors especially conducive to HIV attachment. The other part of the theory was that the foreskin trapped HIV-infected fluid between it and the glans, preventing air from deactivating the virus and allowing much more time for it to penetrate the skin. This was at least 5 years ago when they began noticing the connection, maybe longer. I snipped the link to the article, but I'm still confused about why circumcision would reduce the rate of HIV infection in sub-Saharan Africa which is a hotbed of supposedly heterosexual female-to-male infection, but in Europe where hardly any men are circumcised (it's a largely American custom), the female-to-male infection rate is virtually zero. Or can someone produce numbers that show the female-to-male infection rate is higher in Europe than in the mostly-circumcised USA? > Why does that sound like nervous laughter? > [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > > http://aua02.agora.com/planner/displayabstract.asp?presentationid=2429 Given the actual rate of female to male transmission it is the height of barbarity to even be considering cutting off foreskins to prevent transmission. Perhaps Wilhelm is laughing because as a European he has foreskin. His nervous response one to the pleasure such barbarity disallows -- unlike me the North American who had it chopped off by a doctor who sedated me with brandy as an infant. Circumciscion is a religous practice and should remain so. It should never be forced upon people. All men should be free to remain uncut. Wish someone would have given me a choice. "Male circumcision is equivalent to a vaccine with a 63% efficacy." I prefer patients that can afford unnecessary surgery can also afford antibiotics, clean water and more food OK (hahahahaha!), Mr. Jordan, I'll get serious. But then I also get pissed off because you're trying to sell me again on two papers where they don't look at control samples. >"Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is commonly transmitted, during homosexual and heterosexual intercourse, through the rectal and cervicovaginal mucosa, foreskin and urethral epithelia." Oh, right... because they say so. Those boneheads have never seen an HIV particle in their lives, but they know exactly how they are transmitted. >"The results suggest that the foreskin in uncircumcised men and the cervicovaginal epithelium in females might become infected via the CD4+ Langerhans' cells." and: >"Increased risk of HIV-1 infection in uncircumcised men is likely caused by the presence in foreskin of large numbers of HIV-1 target cells, especially T-cells and LCs, expressing primarily CCR5." I was complaining about a lack of control experiments. Let me explain what I mean by that: Why the hell did they only examine foreskin tissue? Is that any different from the skin of the penis shaft? And if so, how does "HIV" know the difference? Look, if they really want to prove that circumcision makes a difference, then they have to prove at least that there is a difference between the cells of the foreskin and those of the shaft. But in HIV-science controls are never performed anymore. The conclusions have already been made before the experiments are done. This kind of "science" sucks. The people who produce this balderdash are morons and should be tarred and feathered. But you, sir, are worse. Because you really believe that drivel. At least the authors who did those trashy studies got paid for their work. Do you? For propagating it? > OK (hahahahaha!), Mr. Jordan, I'll get serious. But then I also get pissed > off because you're trying to sell me again on two papers where they don't > look at control samples. I am not trying to sell you anything. I am posting a scientific explanation of the mechanism of infection and really don't give a rats a.s whether you agree with it or like it. But don't worry on this matter you are one with gorgeous George in that he too would rather let a few million Africans die than agree to the promotion of the wholesale removal of his favourite sex toy, the foreskin. Kind of undermines his supposed commitment to preventing HIV infection doesn't it? Maybe you are correct in that he may be more interested in the _treatment_ side of this business. Are you being paid by big Pharma, George? >>"Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is commonly transmitted, during > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > really believe that drivel. At least the authors who did those trashy > studies got paid for their work. Do you? For propagating it? snip >Are you being paid by big Pharma, George? LOL. No. I am not. Nor by condom companies. The only association I've had with condoms is that FIAR receives private donations that funded purchase and distribution of condoms and lube. And VERY glad to have done it. Most of the REST of the world wants an opportunity to protect itself from diseases recognized to exist. Hey--but don't believe me. It doesn't matter. George M. Carter >"But don't worry on this matter you are one with gorgeous George in that he too would rather let a few million Africans die than agree to the promotion of the wholesale removal of his favourite sex toy, the foreskin. I?? Being one with gorgeous George?? Oh, PLEASE! It doesn't matter to me whether you give a rat's a.s about my opinion of the papers you cited, Mr. Jordan. But honestly: They suck. Please tell me: Where does the foreskin end and the shaft begins? According to the theory you promote, that's an important matter. When cutting off the foreskin, you don't want to leave some of those "HIV-target cells" behind, now do you? (yuk! yuk! yuk!) Killing off millions of Africans, just because I want to preserve my Jodocus in the form it was issued to me originally... Whoohahahaha! I have to admit... There are lots of things I still don't understand about people. Why they subject their young, defenseless children to a barbaric and perverse ritual, for example. And YOU really believe that's beneficial for Public Health?? Oh, I hope I'll be able to meet you in person some time. I've never seen anybody like that. This I gotta see. |
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