Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2005
University of Heidelberg breakthrough - p24 is of human origin
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copi - 30 Sep 2005 15:26 GMT press release URL (in german):
http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/presse/ruca/ruca99_3/reinhard.html title p24 (an interesting protein family, eine aussergewoehnliche familie)
here are nice pictures of p24 isolates; they look like the 1984 isolates of gallo and montagnier
http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/volltexte/2002/2017/pdf/Disser tation.pdf
em-photos on page 15
Chris Noble - 03 Oct 2005 02:19 GMT p24 refers to the molecular weight of the protein in kiloDaltons.
There are many many proteins that weigh 24 kD this does not make them the same protein.
An apple and an orange may both have the same weight. This does not make them the same.
Chris Noble
copi - 03 Oct 2005 17:51 GMT > An apple and an orange may both have the same weight. But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection? a history of STDs corelates much better with full blown aids, than your unknown p24 antigenaemia:
see http://www.colman.net
Gary Stein - 03 Oct 2005 18:35 GMT >> An apple and an orange may both have the same weight. > > But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection? > a history of STDs corelates much better with full blown aids, > than your unknown p24 antigenaemia: Where do you get this absurd idea from?
How do you explain AID's in children, or the thousands that were infected by clotting factor prior to the HIV test screening donated blood used to make clotting factor?
Gary Stein
copi - 03 Oct 2005 22:00 GMT > How do you explain AID's in children, AZT-desease has nothing to do with Kaposi, PCP and slim desease
see http://www.colman.net video about STDs
> clotting factor prior to the HIV test screening donated blood used to make > clotting factor? p24-antigenaemia has also nothing to do with Kaposi, PCP and slim desease (besides a bad corelation, which was adjusted through AZT).
see http://aids-info.net/micha/hiv/aids/english.html
GMCarter - 03 Oct 2005 22:14 GMT >> How do you explain AID's in children, > >AZT-desease has nothing to do with Kaposi, PCP and slim desease No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.
Or wasting. HIV does cause wasting and neurological problems.
George M. Carter
Fondoo - 05 Oct 2005 08:38 GMT No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.
Or wasting. HIV does cause wasting and neurological problems.
George M. Carter
Again an unproven idea presented as fact. Come now you can't think you know all the ramifications of long term exposure to DNA chain terminators? Please stop confusing layman with stupid
GMCarter - 05 Oct 2005 13:16 GMT > No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Again an unproven idea presented as fact. Nonsense. There are ample data showing that HIV infection can cause wasting and neurological problems.
> Come now you can't think you know all the ramifications of long term >exposure to DNA chain terminators? Nonsense again. HIV infection usually does this in the setting where people are not using ARV.
George M. Carter
** Abrams DI. Clinical manifestations of HIV infection, including persistent generalized lymphadenopathy and AIDS-related complex. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1990 Jun;22(6 Pt 2):1217-22.
Department of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco.
The ability to recognize disease related to the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and subsequent acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) has improved in recent years with refinement of laboratory techniques. Because of this progress, several clinical conditions can now be identified as "pre-AIDS" syndromes. These include the persistent generalized lymphadenopathy syndrome, immune thrombocytopenic purpura, the wasting syndrome, and certain predominantly neurologic presentations. All are characterized by the presence of infection with HIV, symptomatic disease, and, over time, an increasing tendency to progress to "full-blown" AIDS.
** Charurat M, Blattner W, Hershow R, Buck A, Zorrilla CD, Watts DH, Paul M, Landesman S, Adeniyi-Jones S, Tuomala R; Women And Infants Transmission Study. Changing trends in clinical AIDS presentations and survival among HIV-1-infected women. J Womens Health (Larchmt). 2004 Jul-Aug;13(6):719-30.
Division of Epidemiology and Prevention, Institute of Human Virology, University of Maryland, Baltimore, MD, USA. charurat@umbi.umd.edu
OBJECTIVES: To profile trends of clinical AIDS-defining illness (ADI) among a cohort of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-infected women over a 12-year period. METHODS: In a prospective evaluation of AIDS clinical presentation in the Women and Infants Transmission Study (WITS), 2255 subjects were enrolled and followed between December 1989 and June 2002 (total, 4993 person-years). Data on clinical AIDS presentation of 140 (6.2%) HIV-seropositive subjects were evaluated across three calendar periods corresponding to the use of different therapy regimens. Incidence rates (per 1000 woman-years) for AIDS and specific ADIs were compared between periods using Poisson regression methods. RESULTS: Incidence rates of AIDS, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, recurrent bacterial pneumonia, herpes simplex disease, esophageal/bronchial candidiasis, wasting syndrome, and neurological diseases have showed significant downward trends. Among women with ADI, the frequency of either esophageal or bronchial candidiasis as initial ADI showed an increasing trend (p(trend) = 0.03), whereas a decrease in proportion of cases with nontuberculosis mycobacterial infection (P(trend) = 0.05) was observed over the same periods. In the multivariate analysis, both the CD4+ lymphocyte count and HIV-1 RNA at the time of diagnosis were independently associated with survival after AIDS. Highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) was associated with a 70% reduction in progression to death following AIDS. CONCLUSIONS: Temporal changes in the incidence and clinical presentations in HIV-positive women in our cohort reflect an increased use of HAART that may have a differential effect on reduction in the risk of ADIs. These illnesses, although considerably less frequent in recent years, are still important contributors to morbidity in HIV-positive women.
** An older review: Lloyd A. HIV infection and AIDS. P N G Med J. 1996 Sep;39(3):174-80.
Prince Henry Hospital, Sydney, Australia.
Many of the clinical features of HIV/AIDS can be ascribed to the profound immune deficiency which develops in infected patients. The destruction of the immune system by the virus results in opportunistic infection, as well as an increased risk of autoimmune disease and malignancy. In addition, disease manifestations related to the virus itself may occur. For example, during the primary illness which occurs within weeks after first exposure to HIV, clinical symptoms occur in at least 50% of cases, typically as a mononucleosis syndrome. HIV-related complications are rarely encountered in patients with preserved immunity (i.e. CD4 T-cell counts greater than 500 cells/mm3). Recurrent mucocutaneous herpes simplex (HSV), herpes zoster (VZV), oral candidiasis and oral hairy leukoplakia occur with increasing frequency as the CD4 count drops below this level. Immune thrombocytopenia (ITP) occurs in association with HIV and often presents early in the clinical course. The risk of developing opportunistic infections and malignancies typical of AIDS increases progressively as CD4 counts fall below 200 cells/mm3. The clinical manifestations of infections associated with AIDS tend to fall into well-recognized patterns of presentation, including pneumonia, dysphagia/odynophagia, diarrhoea, neurological symptoms, fever, wasting, anaemia and visual loss. The commonest pathogens include Candida albicans, Pneumocystis carinii, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Toxoplasma gondii, Cryptococcus neoformans, Mycobacterium avium intracellulare and cytomegalovirus. Malignant disease in patients with HIV infection also occurs in a characteristic pattern. Only two tumours are prevalent: Kaposi's sarcoma, a multifocal tumour of vascular endothelium which typically involves skin and mucosal surfaces; and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, which is typically high grade in phenotype, often arising within the central nervous system. The principles of therapy include reduction of HIV replication by antiretroviral agents, prophylaxis against the common opportunistic infections and treatment followed by subsequent lifelong maintenance therapy for infections when they do occur.
PIP: This article presents basic information on the clinical features of HIV infection, most of which are related to the profound immune deficiency associated with HIV/AIDS. Primary HIV infection is associated with clinical symptoms, primarily a mononucleosis syndrome, in about 50% of cases. In the ensuing 10 years, more than 50% of HIV-infected individuals develop the opportunistic infections (OIs) indicative of the onset of AIDS. Common presentations of AIDS include pneumonia, dysphagia, diarrhea, neurologic symptoms, fever, wasting, anemia, and vision loss. Monitoring of peripheral blood CD4 T-lymphocytes provides a measure of the current risk of OIs and a guide for antiretroviral therapy. Protease inhibitors, used in combination with other antiretrovirals, allow long-term control of HIV disease, but the substantial cost of these drugs has prohibited their widespread use in developing countries. Treatment of HIV-related infections must be followed by a maintenance regimen intended to prevent relapse.
pauleewhiting - 05 Oct 2005 19:31 GMT "No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.
Or wasting."
So, George, tell us what your definition of "myopathy" is:
"WARNING: RETROVIR (ZIDOVUDINE) [=AZT] MAY BE ASSOCIATED WITH HEMATOLOGIC TOXICITY INCLUDING GRANULOCYTOPENIA AND SEVERE ANEMIA PARTICULARLY IN PATIENTS WITH ADVANCED HIV DISEASE (SEE WARNINGS). ***PROLONGED USE OF RETROVIR [=AZT] HAS BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH SYMPTOMATIC MYOPATHY SIMILAR TO THAT PRODUCED BY HUMAN IMMUNODEFICIENCY VIRUS.*** RARE OCCURRENCES OF LACTIC ACIDOSIS IN THE ABSENCE OF HYPOXEMIA, AND SEVERE HEPATOMEGALY WITH STEATOSIS HAVE BEEN REPORTED WITH THE USE OF ANTIRETROVIRAL NUCLEOSIDE ANALOGUES, INCLUDING RETROVIR AND ZALCITABINE, AND ARE POTENTIALLY FATAL (SEE WARNINGS)." [Emphasis mine.]
- from Glaxo Welcome AZT product information
http://www.healtoronto.com/azt1.html
GMCarter - 05 Oct 2005 22:58 GMT >"No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS. > >Or wasting." > >So, George, tell us what your definition of "myopathy" is: Myopathy is not wasting. AZT-related myopathy doesn't occur in everyone with HIV. This myopathy, characterized by ragged red fibers, is probably due to mitochondrial toxicity of the drug.
MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT.
George M. Carter
** Myopathy: Any and all disease of muscle. Or any type of damage to muscle. There are many different kinds of myopathies.
The most common form of muscular dystrophy, for example, is an inherited myopathy; it is due to mutation of a gene on the X chromosome. The mitochondrial myopathies are a group of neuromuscular diseases caused by damage to the mitochondria, energy-producing structures in cells that serve as power plants. Other myopathies are metabolic; they result from disturbances in metabolism. Drugs such as the statins can also be myopathic and damage muscle.
** http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Lipodystrophy/Archive/HIVWasting/Q155698.html The CDC definition of wasting is based on weight loss of 10% from baseline weight. The definition shown on the CDC site states:
"HIV wasting syndrome: Findings of profound involuntary weight loss of greater than 10% of baseline body weight plus either chronic diarrhea (at least two loose stools per day for greater than or equal to 30 days), or chronic weakness and documented fever (for greater than or equal to 30 days, intermittent or constant) in the absence of a concurrent illness or condition other than HIV infection that could explain the findings (e.g., cancer, tuberculosis, cryptosporidiosis, or other specific enteritis)."
copi - 06 Oct 2005 00:59 GMT > MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT. yes, before 1987-AZT-treatment, people developed lymphoma, PCP, Kaposi and wasting, because of unrecognized syphilis. After reinfection, syphilis takes control of the immune system, the syphilis-antibodies vanish. The VDRL-test becomes negative. 1987Afterwards the GMCarter-AZT-industry-trolls got prevalent.
see http://www.colman.net STDs video
GMCarter - 06 Oct 2005 12:34 GMT >> MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >takes control of the immune system, the syphilis-antibodies vanish. >The VDRL-test becomes negative. Not everyone with AIDS has syphilis.
>1987Afterwards the GMCarter-AZT-industry-trolls >got prevalent. Excuse me but f.ck YOU. I am not an industry troll. What are you? Some troll for the antibiotic industry?
>see http://www.colman.net STDs video I met the guy years ago. He's still on about this? It's bullshit. If syphilis caused AIDS, treated individuals would see their CD4 counts rise. Syphilis is NOT a co-factor. A co-infection of some significancce? Sure.
I'm surprised some of the denialists haven't leaped up to scream there is no PROOF that the spirochete exists! Show me the single paper that PROVES spirochetes cause dementia!
George M. Carter
copi - 07 Oct 2005 17:01 GMT > If >syphilis caused AIDS, treated individuals would see their CD4 counts >rise. Why this? Why do you think a few shots of pennicilin cures late stage syphilis? the heavy herxheimer reaction kills also CD4 cells. Dr. Marshall explains this in his speech about the cysts:
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/trevor-30th.ram
>I'm surprised some of the denialists haven't leaped up to scream there >is no PROOF that the spirochete exists! Show me the single paper that >PROVES spirochetes cause dementia! what do you think neurosyphilis is causing?
Gary Stein - 08 Oct 2005 00:15 GMT >> MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > see http://www.colman.net STDs video What a troll wasting is happening today all around the world in people with AIDS who have no ability to receive ARV treatment. This happens in the first world countries and the third world countries untreated AIDS does not care were you were born it will happily kill anyone who has the misfortune of being infected by HIV and not receiving ARV. Hell for that matter ARV is not a cure it only slows the progression of HIV disease by decades but not completely sadly.
There is simply no connection between AZT and AIDS wasting or it would not appear in the vast majority of untreated AIDS patients now would it Copi? What makes invisible syphilis more convincing to you then highly visible HIV?
Gary Stein
Fondoo - 09 Oct 2005 08:29 GMT Highly visible HIV? Have they been able to prove more than 1 hiv infected cell per 1000 uninfected T-Cells? I don't think a cross reacting HIV test proves HIV. Or another cross reacting PCR test proves how much HIV Got anything else? Gary stay healthy man! This as meant for a debate in the search for truth not an attack my well read HIV bro
Gary Stein - 10 Oct 2005 21:11 GMT > Highly visible HIV? Have they been able to prove more than 1 hiv > infected cell per 1000 uninfected T-Cells? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Gary stay healthy man! This as meant for a debate in the search for > truth not an attack my well read HIV bro Thanks Fondoo, it is a breath of fresh air to encounter some one on your side of the arguement who seems to be willing to be polite and is interested in data not just rhetoric.
As to HIV being visible there are EM's of HIV, it's genome is highly understood, it is being experimentally used as a possible means to introduce gene therapy into humans, it can be cultured in the lab using many different culture methods, vaccine research is underway, etc etc. More is known about HIV then just about any other virus that has been studied.
Even that paragon of Denialist dogma Peter Duesburg agrees that HIV has been isolated. HIV full fills Koch's principles of infection what more do you need?
Gary Stein
copi - 10 Oct 2005 21:26 GMT >Even that paragon of Denialist dogma Peter Duesburg agrees that HIV >has been >isolated. HIV full fills Koch's principles of infection what more do you >need? you have had 3 PCPs , doing well, the pills saved your life? a fresh AZT bath every morning? Gary Glaxo Spamman? Pay the chair for Peter, and you will hear a story about his bad childhood. he grew up as a RETROVIROLOGIST, a very dangerous sect of Pres. Nixon.
Iconoclaster - 11 Oct 2005 01:51 GMT Gary Stein Wrote:
> As to HIV being visible there are EM's of HIV, it's genome is highly > understood, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Gary Stein Now, now, Mr. Stein. No need to run amuck. I'm sure everyone here i familiar with the "EM's of HIV". Lots of cellular crap with a few blac spots, rumored to be HIV particles. I've also seen a very nice picture shown to me by Mr. Bennett. There were indeed beautiful particles, o which some X-ray crystallography was performed. The only thing missin from that paper was the evidence that the particles were really HIV. Yeah, I can believe the genome is highly understood. But the genome o WHAT? Something they fished out of a stimulated cell culture in th lab? I agree that Peter Duesberg believes HIV exists (NOT: "has bee isolated"). But shucks, the man is an expert on retroviruses. He ca be forgiven for getting carried away. Whe he worked on retroviruse there was a virus fever going on under the auspices of Nixon's "War o Cancer". (Another mega-flop).
If I were to do the HIV-work, as it should have been done, I woul first make sure I would isolate the virus from AIDS-patients - dead o alive. Then I would make EM's of the pure virus preparation. Next, would try to infect UNstimulated lymphocytes with this pure virus, t see if it was infectious. Finally, I would determine the physical properties of the viru particles: Sedimentation coefficient, partial specific volume particle weight, etc. Only after all this work was finished, I would extract the RNA, an sequence it. Also the subunits of the core protein would be sequenced And as a clincher, the viral RNA could be introduced as a messenger-RN in a protein-synthesizing system, to see if the same (p24??) cor protein would be produced. That looks like a lot of work... But Jezus! They had more than 2 years!!
It's not so that all biochemists are too stupid to carry out thi project. On the contrary: They are smart enough to realize tha nothing would come out of it, because the whole underlying virus theor is bullshit
-- Iconoclaste
GMCarter - 11 Oct 2005 10:38 GMT >If I were to do the HIV-work, as it should have been done, I would >first make sure I would isolate the virus from AIDS-patients - dead or >alive. Then I would make EM's of the pure virus preparation. It's been done. background (tho a large file): www.sh.lsuhsc.edu/intragrad/276/2005%20LECTURE_1%20History_Intro.doc
more: Levy JA, Hoffman AD, Kramer SM, Landis JA, Shimabukuro JM, Oshiro LS. Isolation of lymphocytopathic retroviruses from San Francisco patients with AIDS. Science 225: 840-842, 1984.
Levy JA, Mitra G, Mozen MM. Recovery and inactivation of infectious retroviruses added to factor VIII concentrates. Lancet ii: 722-723, 1984.
Levy JA, Hollander H, Shimabukuro J, Mills J, Kaminsky L. Isolation of AIDS-associated retroviruses from cerebrospinal fluid and brain of patients with neurological symptoms. Lancet ii: 586-588, 1985.
>Next, I >would try to infect UNstimulated lymphocytes with this pure virus, to >see if it was infectious. Why not stimulated lymphocytes?
What makes you think this work has never been done?
Looks like you picked up a bit of 101 information and are trying to pass yourself off as having half a brain. Ain't gonna work because if you genuinely knew how to do this, you'd have looked around to see what has been done already.
>Finally, I would determine the physical properties of the virus >particles: Sedimentation coefficient, partial specific volume, >particle weight, etc. http://www.biophysj.org/cgi/content/full/74/1/466
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=14963123
>Only after all this work was finished, I would extract the RNA, and >sequence it. Why "only after"?
>Also the subunits of the core protein would be sequenced. Subunits of what core protein?
>And as a clincher, the viral RNA could be introduced as a messenger-RNA >in a protein-synthesizing system, to see if the same (p24??) core >protein would be produced. >That looks like a lot of work... But Jezus! They had more than 20 >years!! Some of it has been done. Probably all of it. I know very little about isolation techniques and hope to learn more...but even with a little knowledge, I could see that a lot of the work has been done.
And it proves to me yet further how disingenuous you are. If you REALLY believed all the crap you spout, you'd actually do a bit of the research yourself.
George M. Carter
pauleewhiting - 06 Oct 2005 22:13 GMT "Myopathy is not wasting. AZT-related myopathy doesn't occur in everyone with HIV."
Definitions of myopathy on the Web:
Weakening or wasting occurring in muscles.
www.bdid.com/termsm.htm
Diseases of skeletal muscle which are not caused by nerve disorders. These diseases cause the skeletal or voluntary muscles to become weak or wasted.
www.vastox.com/research/glossary.html
A disease resulting in dysfunction of the muscles usually causing weakness and atrophy.
www.advmedny.com/glossary.html
progressive muscle weakness. Myopathy may arise as a toxic reaction to AZT (ZIDOVUDINE) or as a consequence of HIV infection itself.
www.gmhc.org/health/glossary3.html
A general term referring to any disease of muscles. Inflammation of muscle tissue, resulting in muscle weakness is a rare side effect of long-term use of Retrovir (AZT), which is also part of Combivir and Trizivir. Myopathy can also be caused by HIV disease itself.
www.aegis.com/pubs/cria/2003/CR030902.html
Alex - 06 Oct 2005 20:04 GMT > No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > exposure to DNA chain terminators? > Please stop confusing layman with stupid He does that, because is both a layman and stupid. :)
Alex
Fondoo - 15 Oct 2005 02:46 GMT Don't get me started on AIDS in children. ARV's are so F***ING toxic to babies it's goddamed criminal. I have experienced just how easy it is for a baby to get on long term ARV's based on a couple positive PCR's alone, also they are pushing full vaccine schedules at the times of the multiple tests. F*** our hospital wanted to test for 18 months ignoring the negative results. It's a true horror story mate.
copi - 15 Oct 2005 18:50 GMT Some more on the non specificity of the p24 antigen.
"endogenous viruses" the same bullshit as endogenous HH8 in Kaposi sarcoma. HH8 never has an infection phase.
In a 1993 study, "In one kidney recipient (the donor was negative for p24 antigen) who, 3 days following transplantation developed fever, weakness, myalgias, cough and diarrhoea, all "Bacteriological, parasitological and virological samples remained negative. The only positive result was antigenaemia p24, positive with Abbot antigen kits in very high titers of 1000pg/ml for polyclonal and 41pg/ml for monoclonal assays. This antigenaemia was totally neutalizable with Abbot antiserum anti-p24...2 months after transplantation, all assays for p24-antigen became negative, without appearance of antibodies against HIV. Five months after transplantation our patient remains asymptomatic, renal function is excellent, p24 antigenaemia still negative and HIV antibodies still negative".(1)
Using two kits, the Abbot and Diagnostic Pasteur, in one study, p24 was detected transiently in 12/14 kidney recipients. Peak titres ranged from 850 to 200 000 pg/ml 7-27 days post- transplantation. Two heart and 5/7 bone marrow recipients were also positive, although the titres were lower and ranged from 140-750 pg/ml. Disappearance of p24 took longer in kidney (approximately 6 months) than in bone-marrow (approximately 4-6 weeks) recipients. Discussing their findings the authors wrote: "The observation of a 25-30kD protein binding to polyclonal anti- HIV human sera after immunoblots with reactive sera raises several questions...The 25-30kD protein could therefore be compared with the p28 antigen recently described with human T-cell- related virus lymphotropic- endogenous sequence...The characterization of this 25-30kD protein may represent an important contribution to the detection of HIV-1-related endogenous retroviruses".(2)
(1) Vincent F, Belec L, Glotz D, Menoyo-Calonge V, Duboust A, Bariety J. (1993) False-positive neutralizable HIV antigens detected in organ transplant recipients. AIDS 7:741-742.
(2) Agbalika F, Ferchal F, Garnier JP, Eugene M, Bedrossian J, Lagrange PH. (1992) False-positive HIV antigens related to emergence of a 25-30kD proteins detected in organ recipients. AIDS 6:959-962.
and the reference for the graves disease finding in my post above is
Ciampollio A, Marini V, Buscema M. (1989) Retrovirus-like sequences in Grave's disease: Implications for human autoimmunity. Lancet i:1096-1100.
GMCarter - 15 Oct 2005 22:31 GMT snip
>(1) Vincent F, Belec L, Glotz D, Menoyo-Calonge V, Duboust A, Bariety >J. (1993) False-positive neutralizable HIV antigens detected in organ >transplant recipients. AIDS 7:741-742. Ah--because the p24 antigen test pretty much sucked, which everyone knew at the time, doesn't render p24 any of the oddball, unrelated proteins you try to ascribe it as being. HIV p24 is not an endogenous protein. I believe Chris Noble directed you to undertake a BLAST search, unavailable at the time this paper was published.
George M .Carter
Chris Noble - 05 Oct 2005 10:26 GMT > > An apple and an orange may both have the same weight. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > see http://www.colman.net Please try to address your initial claim that HIV p24 is endogenous.
HIV p24 has been sequenced.
Here is one.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/viewer.fcgi?db=nucleotide&val=74319740
1 accctatagt gcagaatgca caagggcaaa tgacatatca gtccatgtca cctaggactt 61 tgaatgcatg ggtgaaggta atagaagaaa aggctttcag cccagaggta atacccatgt 121 tttcagcatt atcggaggga tgcactccac aagatttgaa tatgatgcta aacatagtag 181 ggggacacca ggcagcgatg caaatgttaa aagataccat caatgaggaa gctgcagaat 241 gggacagggt acatccagta catgcagggc ctattccacc aggccaaatg agggaaccaa 301 ggggaagtga catagcagga actactagta ccattcaaga acaaatggga tggatgacaa 361 gcaatccacc tatcccagtg ggagaaattt ataaaaaatg gataattatg ggattaaata 421 aaatagtaag aatgtatagc cctaccagca ttctggacat aaggcagggg ccaaaagaac 481 cctttagaga ttatgtagat aggttcttta aaactttgag agctgaaca
This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.
You can use Blast if you want to try yourself
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/blast
Chris Noble
GMCarter - 05 Oct 2005 12:06 GMT snip..
>This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein. But--gosh--there's ANOTHER one called p24 that IS endogenous ergo HIV is all a BIG LIE!!!
All Chris's are the same! Don't try to full us...er...fool! THey SOUND the same so they ARE the same anyway!
George Borg
Chris Noble - 07 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT > snip.. > >This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > George Borg Why don't they make all books weigh 200 g. That way if you've read one then you've read them all. It would make learning a lot easier.
There is absolutely no way to distinguish books apart from their weight.
Chris
GMCarter - 07 Oct 2005 08:34 GMT snip
>There is absolutely no way to distinguish books apart from their >weight. Please, don't try to sugar-coat it. You're just saying you can't judge a book by its cover. Nor a protein!
Gly Cos Elation
copi - 05 Oct 2005 16:26 GMT > This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein. you are dreaming. the quantitative hiv-goldstandard-p24-test is only counting p24 molecules of unknown origin (some maybe endo- some exogenous).
and now wake up and look at the exogenous Treponema-battleship! Dr. Marshall made the breakthrough, pennicillin is not the answer.
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/trevor-30th.ram
Chris Noble - 07 Oct 2005 11:29 GMT > > This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein. > > you are dreaming. > the quantitative hiv-goldstandard-p24-test is only counting > p24 molecules of unknown origin (some maybe endo- some exogenous). No you are dreaming.
Many HIV tests use recombinant HIV p24.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 717811&dopt=Abstract
There is no possible way that anyone can claim that these antigens are endogenous.
Chris Noble
copi - 07 Oct 2005 16:27 GMT > There is no possible way that anyone can claim that these antigens are > endogenous. > > Chris Noble o.k., let one p24 molecule be exogenous, to keep you happy.
copi - 09 Oct 2005 15:49 GMT > Please try to address your initial claim that HIV p24 is endogenous. > > HIV p24 has been sequenced. what do you think, the coding sequence of your personal golgi-p24s does come from? let us call it the Chris-gag-gene.
copi - 10 Oct 2005 15:53 GMT come on Chris, tell us your next Chris-gag
copi - 10 Oct 2005 20:47 GMT > 481 cctttagaga ttatgtagat aggttcttta aaactttgag agctgaaca > > This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein. this is a dna sequence, and no protein. you are simply a glaxo troll, like brian spamman and GMSpammer.
GMCarter - 10 Oct 2005 21:05 GMT >> 481 cctttagaga ttatgtagat aggttcttta aaactttgag agctgaaca >> >> This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein. > >this is a dna sequence, and no protein. you're not really that stupid, are you?
Alex - 06 Oct 2005 18:42 GMT > > An apple and an orange may both have the same weight. > > But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection? Exactly. They have so many answers, except the ones that matter.
Alex
GMCarter - 06 Oct 2005 22:07 GMT >> > An apple and an orange may both have the same weight. >> >> But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection? > >Exactly. They have so many answers, except the ones >that matter. Well, that was a brilliant waste of bandwidth.
You think all proteins that weigh in at 24Kd are the same then?
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