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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2005

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University of Heidelberg breakthrough  - p24 is of human origin

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copi - 30 Sep 2005 15:26 GMT
press release URL (in german):

http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/presse/ruca/ruca99_3/reinhard.html
title p24 (an interesting protein family, eine aussergewoehnliche
familie)

here are nice pictures of p24 isolates; they look like the
1984 isolates of gallo and montagnier

http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/volltexte/2002/2017/pdf/Disser
tation.pdf


em-photos on page 15
Chris Noble - 03 Oct 2005 02:19 GMT
p24 refers to the molecular weight of the protein in kiloDaltons.

There are many many proteins that weigh 24 kD this does not make them
the same protein.

An apple and an orange may both have the same weight. This does not
make them the same.

Chris Noble
copi - 03 Oct 2005 17:51 GMT
> An apple and an orange may both have the same weight.

But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection?
a history of STDs corelates much better with full blown aids,
than your unknown p24 antigenaemia:

see http://www.colman.net
Gary Stein - 03 Oct 2005 18:35 GMT
>> An apple and an orange may both have the same weight.
>
> But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection?
> a history of STDs corelates much better with full blown aids,
> than your unknown p24 antigenaemia:

Where do you get this absurd idea from?

How do you explain AID's in children, or the thousands that were infected by
clotting factor prior to the HIV test screening donated blood used to make
clotting factor?

Gary Stein
copi - 03 Oct 2005 22:00 GMT
> How do you explain AID's in children,

AZT-desease has nothing to do with Kaposi, PCP and slim desease

see http://www.colman.net video about STDs

> clotting factor prior to the HIV test screening donated blood used to make
> clotting factor?

p24-antigenaemia has also nothing to do with Kaposi, PCP and slim
desease
(besides a bad corelation, which was adjusted through AZT).

see http://aids-info.net/micha/hiv/aids/english.html
GMCarter - 03 Oct 2005 22:14 GMT
>> How do you explain AID's in children,
>
>AZT-desease has nothing to do with Kaposi, PCP and slim desease

No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.

Or wasting. HIV does cause wasting and neurological problems.

        George M. Carter
Fondoo - 05 Oct 2005 08:38 GMT
  No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.

Or wasting. HIV does cause wasting and neurological problems.

        George M. Carter

 Again an unproven idea presented as fact.
Come now you can't think you know all the ramifications of long term
exposure to DNA chain terminators?
 Please stop confusing layman with stupid
GMCarter - 05 Oct 2005 13:16 GMT
>   No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>  Again an unproven idea presented as fact.

Nonsense. There are ample data showing that HIV infection can cause
wasting and neurological problems.

> Come now you can't think you know all the ramifications of long term
>exposure to DNA chain terminators?

Nonsense again. HIV infection usually does this in the setting where
people are not using ARV.

        George M. Carter

**
Abrams DI. Clinical manifestations of HIV infection, including
persistent generalized lymphadenopathy and AIDS-related complex. J Am
Acad Dermatol. 1990 Jun;22(6 Pt 2):1217-22.

Department of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco.

   The ability to recognize disease related to the human
immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and subsequent acquired immunodeficiency
syndrome (AIDS) has improved in recent years with refinement of
laboratory techniques. Because of this progress, several clinical
conditions can now be identified as "pre-AIDS" syndromes. These
include the persistent generalized lymphadenopathy syndrome, immune
thrombocytopenic purpura, the wasting syndrome, and certain
predominantly neurologic presentations. All are characterized by the
presence of infection with HIV, symptomatic disease, and, over time,
an increasing tendency to progress to "full-blown" AIDS.

**
Charurat M, Blattner W, Hershow R, Buck A, Zorrilla CD, Watts DH, Paul
M, Landesman S, Adeniyi-Jones S, Tuomala R; Women And Infants
Transmission Study. Changing trends in clinical AIDS presentations and
survival among HIV-1-infected women. J Womens Health (Larchmt). 2004
Jul-Aug;13(6):719-30.

Division of Epidemiology and Prevention, Institute of Human Virology,
University of Maryland, Baltimore, MD, USA. charurat@umbi.umd.edu

   OBJECTIVES: To profile trends of clinical AIDS-defining illness
(ADI) among a cohort of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-infected
women over a 12-year period. METHODS: In a prospective evaluation of
AIDS clinical presentation in the Women and Infants Transmission Study
(WITS), 2255 subjects were enrolled and followed between December 1989
and June 2002 (total, 4993 person-years). Data on clinical AIDS
presentation of 140 (6.2%) HIV-seropositive subjects were evaluated
across three calendar periods corresponding to the use of different
therapy regimens. Incidence rates (per 1000 woman-years) for AIDS and
specific ADIs were compared between periods using Poisson regression
methods. RESULTS: Incidence rates of AIDS, Mycobacterium tuberculosis,
recurrent bacterial pneumonia, herpes simplex disease,
esophageal/bronchial candidiasis, wasting syndrome, and neurological
diseases have showed significant downward trends. Among women with
ADI, the frequency of either esophageal or bronchial candidiasis as
initial ADI showed an increasing trend (p(trend) = 0.03), whereas a
decrease in proportion of cases with nontuberculosis mycobacterial
infection (P(trend) = 0.05) was observed over the same periods. In the
multivariate analysis, both the CD4+ lymphocyte count and HIV-1 RNA at
the time of diagnosis were independently associated with survival
after AIDS. Highly active antiretroviral therapy (HAART) was
associated with a 70% reduction in progression to death following
AIDS. CONCLUSIONS: Temporal changes in the incidence and clinical
presentations in HIV-positive women in our cohort reflect an increased
use of HAART that may have a differential effect on reduction in the
risk of ADIs. These illnesses, although considerably less frequent in
recent years, are still important contributors to morbidity in
HIV-positive women.

**
An older review:
Lloyd A. HIV infection and AIDS. P N G Med J. 1996 Sep;39(3):174-80.

Prince Henry Hospital, Sydney, Australia.

Many of the clinical features of HIV/AIDS can be ascribed to the
profound immune deficiency which develops in infected patients. The
destruction of the immune system by the virus results in opportunistic
infection, as well as an increased risk of autoimmune disease and
malignancy. In addition, disease manifestations related to the virus
itself may occur. For example, during the primary illness which occurs
within weeks after first exposure to HIV, clinical symptoms occur in
at least 50% of cases, typically as a mononucleosis syndrome.
HIV-related complications are rarely encountered in patients with
preserved immunity (i.e. CD4 T-cell counts greater than 500
cells/mm3). Recurrent mucocutaneous herpes simplex (HSV), herpes
zoster (VZV), oral candidiasis and oral hairy leukoplakia occur with
increasing frequency as the CD4 count drops below this level. Immune
thrombocytopenia (ITP) occurs in association with HIV and often
presents early in the clinical course. The risk of developing
opportunistic infections and malignancies typical of AIDS increases
progressively as CD4 counts fall below 200 cells/mm3. The clinical
manifestations of infections associated with AIDS tend to fall into
well-recognized patterns of presentation, including pneumonia,
dysphagia/odynophagia, diarrhoea, neurological symptoms, fever,
wasting, anaemia and visual loss. The commonest pathogens include
Candida albicans, Pneumocystis carinii, Mycobacterium tuberculosis,
Toxoplasma gondii, Cryptococcus neoformans, Mycobacterium avium
intracellulare and cytomegalovirus. Malignant disease in patients with
HIV infection also occurs in a characteristic pattern. Only two
tumours are prevalent: Kaposi's sarcoma, a multifocal tumour of
vascular endothelium which typically involves skin and mucosal
surfaces; and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, which is typically high grade in
phenotype, often arising within the central nervous system. The
principles of therapy include reduction of HIV replication by
antiretroviral agents, prophylaxis against the common opportunistic
infections and treatment followed by subsequent lifelong maintenance
therapy for infections when they do occur.

   PIP: This article presents basic information on the clinical
features of HIV infection, most of which are related to the profound
immune deficiency associated with HIV/AIDS. Primary HIV infection is
associated with clinical symptoms, primarily a mononucleosis syndrome,
in about 50% of cases. In the ensuing 10 years, more than 50% of
HIV-infected individuals develop the opportunistic infections (OIs)
indicative of the onset of AIDS. Common presentations of AIDS include
pneumonia, dysphagia, diarrhea, neurologic symptoms, fever, wasting,
anemia, and vision loss. Monitoring of peripheral blood CD4
T-lymphocytes provides a measure of the current risk of OIs and a
guide for antiretroviral therapy. Protease inhibitors, used in
combination with other antiretrovirals, allow long-term control of HIV
disease, but the substantial cost of these drugs has prohibited their
widespread use in developing countries. Treatment of HIV-related
infections must be followed by a maintenance regimen intended to
prevent relapse.
pauleewhiting - 05 Oct 2005 19:31 GMT
"No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.

Or wasting."

So, George, tell us what your definition of "myopathy" is:

"WARNING: RETROVIR (ZIDOVUDINE) [=AZT] MAY BE ASSOCIATED WITH HEMATOLOGIC
TOXICITY INCLUDING GRANULOCYTOPENIA AND SEVERE ANEMIA PARTICULARLY IN
PATIENTS WITH ADVANCED HIV DISEASE (SEE WARNINGS).  ***PROLONGED USE OF
RETROVIR [=AZT] HAS BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH SYMPTOMATIC MYOPATHY SIMILAR TO
THAT PRODUCED BY HUMAN IMMUNODEFICIENCY VIRUS.***  RARE OCCURRENCES OF
LACTIC ACIDOSIS IN THE ABSENCE OF HYPOXEMIA, AND SEVERE HEPATOMEGALY WITH
STEATOSIS HAVE BEEN REPORTED WITH THE USE OF ANTIRETROVIRAL NUCLEOSIDE
ANALOGUES, INCLUDING RETROVIR AND ZALCITABINE, AND ARE POTENTIALLY FATAL
(SEE WARNINGS)."  [Emphasis mine.]

- from Glaxo Welcome AZT product information

http://www.healtoronto.com/azt1.html
GMCarter - 05 Oct 2005 22:58 GMT
>"No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.
>
>Or wasting."
>
>So, George, tell us what your definition of "myopathy" is:

Myopathy is not wasting. AZT-related myopathy doesn't occur in
everyone with HIV. This myopathy, characterized by ragged red fibers,
is probably due to mitochondrial toxicity of the drug.

MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT.

        George M. Carter

**
Myopathy: Any and all disease of muscle. Or any type of damage to
muscle. There are many different kinds of myopathies.

The most common form of muscular dystrophy, for example, is an
inherited myopathy; it is due to mutation of a gene on the X
chromosome. The mitochondrial myopathies are a group of neuromuscular
diseases caused by damage to the mitochondria, energy-producing
structures in cells that serve as power plants. Other myopathies are
metabolic; they result from disturbances in metabolism. Drugs such as
the statins can also be myopathic and damage muscle.

**
http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Lipodystrophy/Archive/HIVWasting/Q155698.html
The CDC definition of wasting is based on weight loss of 10% from
baseline weight. The definition shown on the CDC site states:

"HIV wasting syndrome: Findings of profound involuntary weight loss of
greater than 10% of baseline body weight plus either chronic diarrhea
(at least two loose stools per day for greater than or equal to 30
days), or chronic weakness and documented fever (for greater than or
equal to 30 days, intermittent or constant) in the absence of a
concurrent illness or condition other than HIV infection that could
explain the findings (e.g., cancer, tuberculosis, cryptosporidiosis,
or other specific enteritis)."
copi - 06 Oct 2005 00:59 GMT
> MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT.

yes, before 1987-AZT-treatment, people developed lymphoma, PCP, Kaposi
and
wasting, because of unrecognized syphilis. After reinfection, syphilis
takes control of the immune system, the syphilis-antibodies vanish.
The VDRL-test becomes negative.
1987Afterwards the GMCarter-AZT-industry-trolls
got prevalent.

see http://www.colman.net STDs video
GMCarter - 06 Oct 2005 12:34 GMT
>> MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>takes control of the immune system, the syphilis-antibodies vanish.
>The VDRL-test becomes negative.

Not everyone with AIDS has syphilis.

>1987Afterwards the GMCarter-AZT-industry-trolls
>got prevalent.

Excuse me but f.ck YOU. I am not an industry troll. What are you? Some
troll for the antibiotic industry?

>see http://www.colman.net STDs video

I met the guy years ago. He's still on about this? It's bullshit. If
syphilis caused AIDS, treated individuals would see their CD4 counts
rise. Syphilis is NOT a co-factor. A co-infection of some
significancce? Sure.

I'm surprised some of the denialists haven't leaped up to scream there
is no PROOF that the spirochete exists! Show me the single paper that
PROVES spirochetes cause dementia!

        George M. Carter
copi - 07 Oct 2005 17:01 GMT
> If
>syphilis caused AIDS, treated individuals would see their CD4 counts
>rise.

Why this? Why do you think a few shots of pennicilin cures late stage
syphilis?
the heavy herxheimer reaction kills also CD4 cells.
Dr. Marshall explains this in his speech about the cysts:

http://autoimmunityresearch.org/trevor-30th.ram

>I'm surprised some of the denialists haven't leaped up to scream there
>is no PROOF that the spirochete exists! Show me the single paper that
>PROVES spirochetes cause dementia!

what do you think neurosyphilis is causing?
Gary Stein - 08 Oct 2005 00:15 GMT
>> MANY people develop or developed wasting without ever touching AZT.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> see http://www.colman.net STDs video

What a troll wasting is happening today all around the world in people with
AIDS who have no ability to receive ARV treatment. This happens in the first
world countries and the third world countries untreated AIDS does not care
were you were born it will happily kill anyone who has the misfortune of
being infected by HIV and not receiving ARV. Hell for that matter ARV is not
a cure it only slows the progression of HIV disease by decades but not
completely sadly.

There is simply no connection between AZT and AIDS wasting or it would not
appear in the vast majority of untreated AIDS patients now would it Copi?
What makes invisible syphilis more convincing to you then highly visible
HIV?

Gary Stein
Fondoo - 09 Oct 2005 08:29 GMT
Highly visible HIV? Have they been able to prove more than 1 hiv
infected cell per 1000 uninfected T-Cells?
  I don't think a cross reacting HIV test proves HIV.
   Or another cross reacting PCR test proves how much HIV
Got anything else?
 Gary stay healthy man! This as meant for a debate in the search for
truth not an attack my well read HIV bro
Gary Stein - 10 Oct 2005 21:11 GMT
> Highly visible HIV? Have they been able to prove more than 1 hiv
> infected cell per 1000 uninfected T-Cells?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  Gary stay healthy man! This as meant for a debate in the search for
> truth not an attack my well read HIV bro

Thanks Fondoo, it is a breath of fresh air to encounter some one on your
side of the arguement who seems to be willing to be polite and is interested
in data not just rhetoric.

As to HIV being visible there are EM's of HIV, it's genome is highly
understood, it is being experimentally used as a possible means to introduce
gene therapy into humans, it can be cultured in the lab using many different
culture methods, vaccine research is underway, etc etc. More is known about
HIV then just about any other virus that has been studied.

Even that paragon of Denialist dogma Peter Duesburg agrees that HIV has been
isolated. HIV full fills Koch's principles of infection what more do you
need?

Gary Stein
copi - 10 Oct 2005 21:26 GMT
>Even that paragon of Denialist dogma Peter Duesburg agrees that HIV >has been
>isolated. HIV full fills Koch's principles of infection what more do you
>need?

you have had 3 PCPs , doing well,  the pills saved your life?
a fresh AZT bath every morning? Gary Glaxo Spamman?
Pay the chair for Peter, and you will hear a story about his
bad childhood. he grew up as a RETROVIROLOGIST,
a very dangerous sect of Pres. Nixon.
Iconoclaster - 11 Oct 2005 01:51 GMT
Gary Stein Wrote:

> As to HIV being visible there are EM's of HIV, it's genome is highly
> understood,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Gary Stein

Now, now, Mr. Stein.  No need to run amuck.   I'm sure everyone here i
familiar with the "EM's of HIV".  Lots of cellular crap with a few blac
spots, rumored to be HIV particles.  I've also seen a very nice picture
shown to me by Mr. Bennett.  There were indeed beautiful particles, o
which some X-ray crystallography was performed.  The only thing missin
from that paper was the evidence that the particles were really HIV.
Yeah, I can believe the genome is highly understood.  But the genome o
WHAT?  Something they fished out of a stimulated cell culture in th
lab?
I agree that Peter Duesberg believes HIV exists (NOT: "has bee
isolated").  But shucks, the man is an expert on retroviruses.  He ca
be forgiven for getting carried away.  Whe he worked on retroviruse
there was a virus fever going on under the auspices of Nixon's "War o
Cancer".  (Another mega-flop).

If I were to do the HIV-work, as it should have been done, I woul
first make sure I would isolate the virus from AIDS-patients - dead o
alive.  Then I would make EM's of the pure virus preparation.  Next,
would try to infect UNstimulated lymphocytes with this pure virus, t
see if it was infectious.
Finally, I would determine the physical properties of the viru
particles:  Sedimentation coefficient, partial specific volume
particle weight, etc.
Only after all this work was finished, I would extract the RNA, an
sequence it.  Also the subunits of the core protein would be sequenced
And as a clincher, the viral RNA could be introduced as a messenger-RN
in a protein-synthesizing system, to see if the same (p24??) cor
protein would be produced.
That looks like a lot of work... But Jezus! They had more than 2
years!!

It's not so that all biochemists are too stupid to carry out thi
project.  On the contrary:  They are smart enough to realize tha
nothing would come out of it, because the whole underlying virus theor
is bullshit

--
Iconoclaste
GMCarter - 11 Oct 2005 10:38 GMT
>If I were to do the HIV-work, as it should have been done, I would
>first make sure I would isolate the virus from AIDS-patients - dead or
>alive.  Then I would make EM's of the pure virus preparation.  

It's been done.
background (tho a large file):
www.sh.lsuhsc.edu/intragrad/276/2005%20LECTURE_1%20History_Intro.doc

more:
Levy JA, Hoffman AD, Kramer SM, Landis JA, Shimabukuro JM, Oshiro LS.
Isolation of lymphocytopathic retroviruses from San Francisco patients
with AIDS. Science 225: 840-842, 1984.

Levy JA, Mitra G, Mozen MM. Recovery and inactivation of infectious
retroviruses added to factor VIII concentrates. Lancet ii: 722-723,
1984.

Levy JA, Hollander H, Shimabukuro J, Mills J, Kaminsky L. Isolation of
AIDS-associated retroviruses from cerebrospinal fluid and brain of
patients with neurological symptoms. Lancet ii: 586-588, 1985.

>Next, I
>would try to infect UNstimulated lymphocytes with this pure virus, to
>see if it was infectious.

Why not stimulated lymphocytes?

What makes you think this work has never been done?

Looks like you picked up a bit of 101 information and are trying to
pass yourself off as having half a brain. Ain't gonna work because if
you genuinely knew how to do this, you'd have looked around to see
what has been done already.

>Finally, I would determine the physical properties of the virus
>particles:  Sedimentation coefficient, partial specific volume,
>particle weight, etc.

http://www.biophysj.org/cgi/content/full/74/1/466

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=14963123

>Only after all this work was finished, I would extract the RNA, and
>sequence it.  

Why "only after"?

>Also the subunits of the core protein would be sequenced.

Subunits of what core protein?

>And as a clincher, the viral RNA could be introduced as a messenger-RNA
>in a protein-synthesizing system, to see if the same (p24??) core
>protein would be produced.
>That looks like a lot of work... But Jezus! They had more than 20
>years!!

Some of it has been done. Probably all of it. I know very little about
isolation techniques and hope to learn more...but even with a little
knowledge, I could see that a lot of the work has been done.

And it proves to me yet further how disingenuous you are. If you
REALLY believed all the crap you spout, you'd actually do a bit of the
research yourself.

        George M. Carter
pauleewhiting - 06 Oct 2005 22:13 GMT
"Myopathy is not wasting. AZT-related myopathy doesn't occur in everyone
with HIV."

Definitions of myopathy on the Web:

Weakening or wasting occurring in muscles.

www.bdid.com/termsm.htm

Diseases of skeletal muscle which are not caused by nerve disorders. These
diseases cause the skeletal or voluntary muscles to become weak or
wasted.

www.vastox.com/research/glossary.html

A disease resulting in dysfunction of the muscles usually causing weakness
and atrophy.

www.advmedny.com/glossary.html

progressive muscle weakness. Myopathy may arise as a toxic reaction to AZT
(ZIDOVUDINE) or as a consequence of HIV infection itself.

www.gmhc.org/health/glossary3.html

A general term referring to any disease of muscles. Inflammation of muscle
tissue, resulting in muscle weakness is a rare side effect of long-term
use of Retrovir (AZT), which is also part of Combivir and Trizivir.
Myopathy can also be caused by HIV disease itself.

www.aegis.com/pubs/cria/2003/CR030902.html
Alex - 06 Oct 2005 20:04 GMT
>    No, you're right. AZT might cause anemia, but it doesn't cause AIDS.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> exposure to DNA chain terminators?
>   Please stop confusing layman with stupid

He does that, because is both a layman and stupid. :)

Alex
Fondoo - 15 Oct 2005 02:46 GMT
Don't get me started on AIDS in children. ARV's are so F***ING toxic to
babies it's goddamed criminal. I have experienced just how easy it is for
a baby to get on long term ARV's based on a couple positive PCR's alone,
also they are pushing full vaccine schedules at the times of the multiple
tests. F*** our hospital wanted to test for 18 months ignoring the
negative results. It's a true horror story mate.
copi - 15 Oct 2005 18:50 GMT
Some more on the non specificity of the p24 antigen.

"endogenous viruses" the same bullshit as endogenous HH8 in Kaposi
sarcoma.
HH8 never has an infection phase.

In a 1993 study, "In one kidney recipient (the donor was negative for
p24 antigen) who, 3 days following transplantation developed fever,
weakness, myalgias, cough and diarrhoea, all "Bacteriological,
parasitological and virological samples remained negative. The only
positive result was antigenaemia p24, positive with Abbot antigen kits
in very high titers of 1000pg/ml for polyclonal and 41pg/ml for
monoclonal assays. This antigenaemia was totally neutalizable with
Abbot antiserum anti-p24...2 months after transplantation, all assays
for p24-antigen became negative, without appearance of antibodies
against HIV. Five months after transplantation our patient remains
asymptomatic, renal function is excellent, p24 antigenaemia still
negative and HIV antibodies still negative".(1)

Using two kits, the Abbot and Diagnostic Pasteur, in one study, p24 was
detected transiently in 12/14 kidney recipients. Peak titres ranged
from 850 to 200 000 pg/ml 7-27 days post- transplantation. Two heart
and 5/7 bone marrow recipients were also positive, although the titres
were lower and ranged from 140-750 pg/ml. Disappearance of p24 took
longer in kidney (approximately 6 months) than in bone-marrow
(approximately 4-6 weeks) recipients. Discussing their findings the
authors wrote: "The observation of a 25-30kD protein binding to
polyclonal anti- HIV human sera after immunoblots with reactive sera
raises several questions...The 25-30kD protein could therefore be
compared with the p28 antigen recently described with human T-cell-
related virus lymphotropic- endogenous sequence...The characterization
of this 25-30kD protein may represent an important contribution to the
detection of HIV-1-related endogenous retroviruses".(2)

(1) Vincent F, Belec L, Glotz D, Menoyo-Calonge V, Duboust A, Bariety
J. (1993) False-positive neutralizable HIV antigens detected in organ
transplant recipients. AIDS 7:741-742.

(2) Agbalika F, Ferchal F, Garnier JP, Eugene M, Bedrossian J, Lagrange
PH. (1992) False-positive HIV antigens related to emergence of a
25-30kD proteins detected in organ recipients. AIDS 6:959-962.

and the reference for the graves disease finding in my post above is

Ciampollio A, Marini V, Buscema M. (1989) Retrovirus-like sequences in
Grave's disease: Implications for human autoimmunity. Lancet
i:1096-1100.
GMCarter - 15 Oct 2005 22:31 GMT
snip
>(1) Vincent F, Belec L, Glotz D, Menoyo-Calonge V, Duboust A, Bariety
>J. (1993) False-positive neutralizable HIV antigens detected in organ
>transplant recipients. AIDS 7:741-742.

Ah--because the p24 antigen test pretty much sucked, which everyone
knew at the time, doesn't render p24 any of the oddball, unrelated
proteins you try to ascribe it as being. HIV p24 is not an endogenous
protein. I believe Chris Noble directed you to undertake a BLAST
search, unavailable at the time this paper was published.

        George M .Carter
Chris Noble - 05 Oct 2005 10:26 GMT
> > An apple and an orange may both have the same weight.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> see http://www.colman.net

Please try to address your initial claim that HIV p24 is endogenous.

HIV p24 has been sequenced.

Here is one.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/viewer.fcgi?db=nucleotide&val=74319740

       1 accctatagt gcagaatgca caagggcaaa tgacatatca gtccatgtca
cctaggactt
      61 tgaatgcatg ggtgaaggta atagaagaaa aggctttcag cccagaggta
atacccatgt
     121 tttcagcatt atcggaggga tgcactccac aagatttgaa tatgatgcta
aacatagtag
     181 ggggacacca ggcagcgatg caaatgttaa aagataccat caatgaggaa
gctgcagaat
     241 gggacagggt acatccagta catgcagggc ctattccacc aggccaaatg
agggaaccaa
     301 ggggaagtga catagcagga actactagta ccattcaaga acaaatggga
tggatgacaa
     361 gcaatccacc tatcccagtg ggagaaattt ataaaaaatg gataattatg
ggattaaata
     421 aaatagtaag aatgtatagc cctaccagca ttctggacat aaggcagggg
ccaaaagaac
     481 cctttagaga ttatgtagat aggttcttta aaactttgag agctgaaca

This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.

You can use Blast if you want to try yourself

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/blast


Chris Noble
GMCarter - 05 Oct 2005 12:06 GMT
snip..
>This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.

But--gosh--there's ANOTHER one called p24 that IS endogenous ergo HIV
is all a BIG LIE!!!

All Chris's are the same! Don't try to full us...er...fool! THey SOUND
the same so they ARE the same anyway!

        George Borg
Chris Noble - 07 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT
> snip..
> >This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>         George Borg

Why don't they make all books weigh 200 g. That way if you've read one
then you've read them all. It would make learning a lot easier.

There is absolutely no way to distinguish books apart from their
weight.

Chris
GMCarter - 07 Oct 2005 08:34 GMT
snip
>There is absolutely no way to distinguish books apart from their
>weight.

Please, don't try to sugar-coat it. You're just saying you can't judge
a book by its cover. Nor a protein!

        Gly Cos Elation
copi - 05 Oct 2005 16:26 GMT
> This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.

you are dreaming.
the quantitative hiv-goldstandard-p24-test is only counting
p24 molecules of unknown origin (some maybe endo- some exogenous).

and now wake up and look at the exogenous Treponema-battleship!
Dr. Marshall made the breakthrough,
pennicillin is not the answer.

http://autoimmunityresearch.org/trevor-30th.ram
Chris Noble - 07 Oct 2005 11:29 GMT
> > This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.
>
> you are dreaming.
> the quantitative hiv-goldstandard-p24-test is only counting
> p24 molecules of unknown origin (some maybe endo- some exogenous).

No you are dreaming.

Many HIV tests use recombinant HIV p24.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1
717811&dopt=Abstract


There is no possible way that anyone can claim that these antigens are
endogenous.

Chris Noble
copi - 07 Oct 2005 16:27 GMT
> There is no possible way that anyone can claim that these antigens are
> endogenous.
>
> Chris Noble

o.k., let one p24 molecule be exogenous, to keep you happy.
copi - 09 Oct 2005 15:49 GMT
> Please try to address your initial claim that HIV p24 is endogenous.
>
> HIV p24 has been sequenced.

what do you think, the coding sequence of your personal golgi-p24s does
come
from? let us call it the Chris-gag-gene.
copi - 10 Oct 2005 15:53 GMT
come on Chris,
tell us your next Chris-gag
copi - 10 Oct 2005 20:47 GMT
>       481 cctttagaga ttatgtagat aggttcttta aaactttgag agctgaaca
>
> This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.

this is a dna sequence, and no protein.
you are simply a glaxo troll,
like brian spamman and GMSpammer.
GMCarter - 10 Oct 2005 21:05 GMT
>>       481 cctttagaga ttatgtagat aggttcttta aaactttgag agctgaaca
>>
>> This protein has no significant relationship to any endogenous protein.
>
>this is a dna sequence, and no protein.

you're not really that stupid, are you?
Alex - 06 Oct 2005 18:42 GMT
> > An apple and an orange may both have the same weight.
>
> But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection?

Exactly. They have so many answers, except the ones
that matter.

Alex
GMCarter - 06 Oct 2005 22:07 GMT
>> > An apple and an orange may both have the same weight.
>>
>> But too much of this unknown p24 fruit is proove for HIV-infection?
>
>Exactly. They have so many answers, except the ones
>that matter.

Well, that was a brilliant waste of bandwidth.

You think all proteins that weigh in at 24Kd are the same then?
 
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