Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

More Scientific Than Thou

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
pauleewhiting - 24 Aug 2005 21:11 GMT
Chris Noble, in your honor, I am going to dedicate these daily dissident
quotes to you...

And I tell ya what, son, if any one of these bastards gets under your skin
because they dare to question your precious, little theory, just let them
know that - if they don't stop - you're gonna take your toys and go home!

Let's start off with Dr. Kary Mullis, PhD, Biochemist, Winner, 1993 Nobel
Prize for Chemistry for inventing the polymerase chain reaction, the basis
for the HIV viral load tests:

“It’s not even probable, let alone scientifically proven, that HIV causes
AIDS. If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be
scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that
fact, at least with a high probability. There are no such documents.”

Spin Magazine, Vol. 10 No.4, 1994

“The HIV-causes-AIDS theory is one hell of a mistake.”

Foreword, “Inventing the AIDS Virus”

“Years from now, people will find our acceptance of the HIV theory of AIDS
as silly as we find those who excommunicated Galileo.”

“Dancing Naked in the Mind Field,” 1998

“Where is the research that says HIV is the cause of AIDS? There are
10,000 people in the world now who specialize in HIV. None has any
interest in the possibility HIV doesn’t cause AIDS because if it doesn’t,
their expertise is useless.”

“People keep asking me, ‘You mean you don’t believe that HIV causes AIDS?’
And I say, ‘Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant! I have no
scientific evidence for it.’ I might believe in God, and He could have
told me in a dream that HIV causes AIDS. But I wouldn’t stand up in front
of scientists and say, ‘I believe HIV causes AIDS because God told me.’
I’d say, ‘I have papers here in hand and experiments that have been done
that can be demonstrated to others.’ It’s not what somebody believes, it’s
experimental proof that counts. And those guys don’t have that.”

California Monthly, Sept 1994

“If you think a virus is the cause of AIDS, do a control without it. To do
a control is the first thing you teach undergraduates. But it hasn’t been
done. The epidemiology of AIDS is a pile of anecdotal stories selected to
the virus-AIDS hypothesis. People don’t bother to check the details of
popular dogma or consensus views.”

HIV not Guilty, Oct 5, 1996

“[Aids] is not ‘God’s wrath’ or any other absurdity. A segment of our
society was experimenting with their lifestyle, and it didn’t work. They
got sick. Another segment of our pluralistic society, call them
doctor/scientist refugees from the failed War on Cancer, or just call them
professional jackals, discovered that it did work. It worked for them.
They are still making payments on their new BMWs out of your pocket.”

Dancing Naked in the Mind Field. Vintage Books. 2000
GMCarter - 24 Aug 2005 23:16 GMT
>Chris Noble, in your honor, I am going to dedicate these daily dissident
>quotes to you...
>
>And I tell ya what, son, if any one of these bastards gets under your skin
>because they dare to question your precious, little theory, just let them
>know that - if they don't stop - you're gonna take your toys and go home!

Darling, Chris nor I nor you nor "iconoclaster" will change the simple
reality that HIV exists and causes AIDS in the majority of infected
individuals.

You can always, of course, ask your denialist buddy, David
Pasquarelli!

Of course, he's dead.

He died of AIDS. Caused by HIV. Which is what will happen to you as
well, should you happen to be HIV-infected and pretend everything is
just peachy.

That's just reality. Dither away, now!

        George M. Carter
wilyretrovirus - 25 Aug 2005 00:45 GMT
Is that really all you can do, George?  Invoke the name of your favorite
dead dissident?  Damn, what a bore!
I don't know what Mr. Pasquarelli died of, but it sure wasn't "HIV".  You
seem to be so knowledgeable (and compassionate) concerning all matters
Paquarelli.  Nobody dies directly from "HIV"...so what illnesses did he
have?  Let's hear it, if you know.  Hugs.
pauleewhiting - 25 Aug 2005 03:32 GMT
George,

Maybe you should start threatening the rest of the doctors and scientists
I am about to quote with your promise of death by "HIV."

I am sure they would have the same response that I do...

In fact, maybe you should personally threaten - with a horrible death by
the phantom virus - the developer of the Protease Inhibitor, Dr. David
Rasnick, PhD, Biochemist, University of California for these quotes:

“The HIV hypothesis of AIDS is the biggest scientific, medical blunder of
the 20th Century. The evidence is overwhelming that AIDS is not
contagious, sexually transmitted, or caused by HIV. The physicians who
know or suspect the truth are embarrassed or afraid to admit that the HIV
tests are absurd and should be outlawed, and that the anti-HIV drugs are
injuring and killing people.”

Mail & Guardian, Johannesburg, SA, Jan 24, 2001

“As a scientist who has studied AIDS for 16 years, I have determined that
AIDS has little to do with science and is not even primarily a medical
issue. AIDS is a sociological phenomenon held together by fear, creating a
kind of medical McCarthyism that has transgressed and collapsed all the
rules of science, and has imposed a brew of belief and pseudoscience on a
vulnerable public.”

Spin, June 1997

“Fifty percent of Africans have no sewage systems. Their drinking water
mixes with animal and human waste. They have constant TB and malaria
infections, the symptoms of which are diarrhea and weight loss, the very
same criteria UNAIDS and the World Health Organization use to diagnose
AIDS in Africa. These people need clean drinking water and treated
mosquito nets [mosquitoes carry malaria], not condoms and lectures and
deadly pharmaceuticals forced on pregnant mothers.”

Scheff, AIDS Debate, Boston Dig, 2003

“We’ve put 20 years and $118 billion into HIV. We’ve got no cure, no
vaccine and no progress. Instead we have thousands of people made sick and
even killed by toxic AIDS drugs. But we can’t just treat them for the
diseases we know they have because if we do, we’re called ‘AIDS
denialists.’ AIDS is a multi-billion dollar industry. There are 100,000
professional AIDS researchers in this country. It’s as hard to challenge
as big tobacco at this point.”

Scheff

“Those damn [HIV] tests should be outlawed. They’re lethal. First of all,
it’s a death sentence in South Africa. People commit suicide, they’ve been
stoned to death, they’ve had their houses burned down, they’ve been
murdered. Just for having antibodies to HIV. They have been ostracized.
And in certain rural communities, ostracism is equivalent to death. So
you’re scared to death, first of all. And then you start taking the
anti-HIV drugs, which cause AIDS, and if you take them long enough they
will kill you.”

New York Press, vol. 14, no. 16, 2002

“In 1990 at the San Francisco AIDS conference, [HIV co-discoverer Luc]
Montagnier announced that HIV did not, after all, kill T-cells and could
not be the cause of AIDS. Within hours of making this announcement, he was
attacked by the very industry he’d helped to create.”

Scheff

“People can have a high viral load and be healthy and have a low viral
load and be sick and everything in between. These guys [AIDS researchers]
will admit this between themselves, they just don’t admit it publicly.”

Gear Magazine, March 2000

“The National Institutes of Health, the Centers for Disease Control, the
Medical Research Council, and the World Health Organization are
terrorizing hundreds of millions of people around the world by their
reckless and absurd policy of equating sex with death. Linking sex to
death has put these organizations in an impossible situation. It would be
intolerably embarrassing for them to admit at this late date that they are
wrong, that AIDS is not sexually transmitted. Such an admission could very
well destroy these organizations or at the very least put their future
credibility in jeopardy. Self preservation compels these institutions to
not only maintain but to actually compound their errors, which adds to the
fear, suffering, and misery of the world — the antithesis of their reason
for being.”

British Medical Journal Rapid Response, 18 April 2003
GMCarter - 25 Aug 2005 11:57 GMT
>George,
>
>Maybe you should start threatening the rest of the doctors and scientists
>I am about to quote with your promise of death by "HIV."

If they're infected, they'll die of AIDS most likely.

That's just reality, no matter what those fellows dither on about.

Scheff, of course, is neither a doctor nor a scientist. Just a hack
journalist.

        George M. Carter
pauleewhiting - 25 Aug 2005 17:12 GMT
George!

Very good!  Yes, Liam Scheff is a journalist!

And as we all know, if a journalist reports on what heavily-credentialed
scientists are saying about the ever-so-faulty HIV theory, that
automatically makes him a "hack."

Congratulations, you've just earned two extra points...

And now (drum roll, please) for the coveted "Gold Star on your
forehead"...

Can you tell me if both Dr. Kary Mullis, PhD, Biochemist and winner of
1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry for inventing the polymerase chain reaction
(which is the basis for the "viral load" test) and Dr. David Rasnick, PhD,
Biochemist at the University of California and developer of the Protease
Inhibitor (which is currently used in the treatment of "HIV") are also
"hacks"?

Because their quotes are not making the HIV theory look to good, Junior.
Why don't you personally attack them, as well?

I am sure they would just love to hear from you, since you seem to know so
much more than they do about their field of expertise...

I tell ya what!

Why don't a toss in a quote from someone you may not have heard of before!
I am sure you'll find some reason to personally attack Dr. Charles
Thomas, PhD, former Professor of Biochemistry, Harvard and Johns Hopkins
Universities. Former chair of the Cell Biology Department, Scripps
Research Institute, because - lurking beneath all of those credentials - I
am just sure there is a "hack" doing his evil best to thwart the
"indisputable" HIV theory:

“The HIV-causes-AIDS dogma is the grandest fraud that has ever been
perpetrated on young men and women of the Western world. AIDS is a cruel
deception that is maintained because so many people are making money from
it. Take away this money and the entire system of mythology will
collapse.”

Sunday Times, London, 3 April 1994

“I think that Duesberg and Root-Bernstein have it right [about what causes
AIDS]. Anything or process that destroys the individual’s ability to mount
an immune response…This could be the use of…cocaine, heroin, amyl nitrite
(poppers), amphetamines...malnutrition and lack of essential
vitamins…being the recipient of whole blood or blood products…repeated and
multiple infections… [all] are immunosuppressive.”

“Kimberly Bergalis, according to the general press, was a young lady who
was found to have antibody to HIV…she was put on AZT [AIDS medicine]…the
AZT killed her.”

“Ryan White was an 18-year-old hemophiliac who died in April of 1990 of
unstoppable internal bleeding which may have been exacerbated by the AZT
he was taking.”

“…Even after many years not one [HIV-infected] chimp has come down with
AIDS diseases. This means we have an animal model for HIV, and it does not
seem to cause AIDS.”

“…By the most sensitive PCR and culture procedures, no virus can be
detected in 90% of the semen samples taken from men with AIDS.”

Rethinking AIDS May 1993

“The reason that the whole shabby story of HIV is being held in place is
there’s so much money riding on it. The federal government is spending
about $4 billion on just this single subject, and all that $4 billion is
predicated on the idea that HIV causes these diseases. If HIV does not
cause these diseases, then that money is being wasted. And I believe it is
being wasted. But the people who are the recipients of that money don’t
want it to stop.”

“I often wonder what would happen if all federal money for AIDS—education,
research, treatment, and so forth—was suddenly dropped to zero. It’s my
belief that AIDS would go away. In other words, the AIDS diseases that we
see today would be reassigned to their former categories—pneumocystis
carinii pneumonia, Kaposi’s sarcoma, and the other 25 or so different
diseases, now including cervical dysplasia and so forth. AIDS has been a
disease of definition. If we said that it didn’t exist and didn’t pay for
it with taxpayers’ money, it would disappear into the background of normal
mortality.”

Penthouse Magazine, April 1995

“Sex is no more dangerous today than 20 years ago—or 1,000 years ago.”

Rethinking AIDS May 1993


Gary Stein - 25 Aug 2005 22:06 GMT
> George!
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Inhibitor (which is currently used in the treatment of "HIV") are also
> "hacks"?

Rasnick did research into Protease Inhibitors but he did develop any of the
PI drugs used to treat HIV, nor if my memory is correct was he the first to
study Protease Inhibitors. Again were are the research results from Mullis
and Rasnick to back up there claims?

How does Mullis explain the simple fact that when looking retrospectively at
the medical records of HIV and AIDS patients and comparing there health
status to there viral load test results there is a distinct correlation
between higher viral load test results and deteriorating health in those
patients. If the test is measuring nothing as he claims then there could not
be any correlation what so ever between Viral Load test results and patient
health.

Gary Stein
montygram - 29 Aug 2005 03:21 GMT
The Perth Group explains this.  It's about oxidative stress (that is
what is being measured, indirectly).   If you don't understand what
that means, it's time to hit the books.
GMCarter - 29 Aug 2005 10:38 GMT
>The Perth Group explains this.  It's about oxidative stress (that is
>what is being measured, indirectly).   If you don't understand what
>that means, it's time to hit the books.

The Perth Group are full of sh.t.

However, the mechanism of oxidative stress IS very important. How
important is not yet clear. But there is obviously a therapeutic
implication to the evidence for oxidative stress, e.g., antioxidant
therapy.

A multivitamin, alpha lipoic acid, NAC (esp. to offset massive sulfur
loss via cysteine and to replenish glutathione) as well as some other
agents I believe are very important aspects to HIV disease management
and care. There are some clinical data that support this notion; we
need more such data.

By the way---omega-3 fatty acids may help thwart production of PGE2,
an inflammatory aspect of HIV disease.

        George M. Carter
Gary Stein - 29 Aug 2005 21:54 GMT
> The Perth Group explains this.  It's about oxidative stress (that is
> what is being measured, indirectly).   If you don't understand what
> that means, it's time to hit the books.

I know what oxidative stress is and it has absolutely no ability to effect
the results of an HIV viral load test.

The Perth Group claims that oxidative stress is one of the causes of AIDS, I
will agree that it plays a role in disease progression in HIV and AIDS
patients. That has nothing to say about the root cause of AIDS though.  Due
to the fact that patients in similar conditions of nutrition, health, and
thus levels of oxidative stress who do not test positive for HIV do not
progress to AIDS. While those patients with similar levels of oxidative
stress who do test positive for HIV do indeed in the vast majority of cases
if left untreated progress to AIDS.

Gary Stein
GMCarter - 29 Aug 2005 22:28 GMT
>> The Perth Group explains this.  It's about oxidative stress (that is
>> what is being measured, indirectly).   If you don't understand what
>> that means, it's time to hit the books.
>>
>I know what oxidative stress is and it has absolutely no ability to effect
>the results of an HIV viral load test.

That may be true--but I'm not sure if it is? First, what test of OS
might one correlate with HIV load? PGE2, I believe, DOES correlate.
Not sure....Malondialdehyde? Hmmm...one interesting abstract below.
Only a trend tho in terms of viral load....one study suggested no
correlation with viral load and reduced glutathione levels (see Ann
Biol Clin (Paris). 2004 Nov-Dec;62(6):713-5), but note the other
abstract below.

A lot depends on the assay used.

>The Perth Group claims that oxidative stress is one of the causes of AIDS, I
>will agree that it plays a role in disease progression in HIV and AIDS
>patients. That has nothing to say about the root cause of AIDS though.  

...and indeed, I'd add that oxidative stress is a more generalized
condition that is associated with a range of diseases. Wherefore
antioxidant therapy (which needs to be defined) may blunt a variety of
clinical symptoms and disease processes.

While I think antioxidant therapy (despite one of the abstracts below)
is a useful part of anti-HIV therapy (certainly at the least a
multivitamin), it's not clear what impact it would have on disease
progression. Kaiser's recently reported study using a potent multi
plus NAC, alpha lipoic and acetylcarnitine showed a 25% increase in
CD4 count but no effect on viral load.

Thus, to suggest that AIDS is merely a situation of increased
oxidative stress--and nothing else--is simply absurd. Almost as brain
dead stupid as saying that "drugs cause AIDS."

        George M. Carter

**
Vitamins E+C is nice but I think it makes more sense to use a potent
multi to capture a range of antioxidants.

Allard JP, Aghdassi E, Chau J, Tam C, Kovacs CM, Salit IE, Walmsley
SL. Effects of vitamin E and C supplementation on oxidative stress and
viral load in HIV-infected subjects. AIDS. 1998 Sep 10;12(13):1653-9.

Department of Medicine, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

   OBJECTIVES: The HIV-infected population is known to be oxidatively
stressed and deficient in antioxidant micronutrients. Since in vitro
replication of HIV is increased with oxidative stress, this study
assessed the effect of antioxidant vitamin supplementation on lipid
peroxidation, a measure of oxidative stress, and viral load in humans.
DESIGN: A randomized placebo-controlled, double-blind study. METHODS:
Forty-nine HIV-positive patients were randomized to receive
supplements of both DL-alpha-tocopherol acetate (800 IU daily) and
vitamin C (1000 mg daily), or matched placebo, for 3 months. Plasma
antioxidant micronutrient status, breath pentane output, plasma lipid
peroxides, malondialdehyde and viral load were measured at baseline
and at 3 months. New or recurrent infections for the 6-month period
after study entry were also recorded. RESULTS: The vitamin group (n =
26) had an increase in plasma concentrations of alpha-tocopherol (P <
0.0005) and vitamin C (P < 0.005) and a reduction in lipid
peroxidation measured by breath pentane (P < 0.025), plasma lipid
peroxides (P < 0.01) and malondialdehyde (P < 0.0005) when compared
with controls (n = 23). There was also a trend towards a reduction in
viral load (mean +/- SD changes over 3 months, -0.45 +/- 0.39 versus
+0.50 +/- 0.40 log10 copies/ml; P = 0.1; 95% confidence interval,
-0.21 to -2.14). The number of infections reported was nine in the
vitamin group and seven in the placebo group. CONCLUSION: Supplements
of vitamin E and C reduce oxidative stress in HIV and produce a trend
towards a reduction in viral load. This is worthy of larger clinical
trials, especially in HIV-infected persons who cannot afford new
combination therapies.

**
Going the other direction, increasing viral load appears associated
with reductions in reduced glutathione and cysteine levels.

Sbrana E, Paladini A, Bramanti E, Spinetti MC, Raspi G. Quantitation
of reduced glutathione and cysteine in human immunodeficiency
virus-infected patients. Electrophoresis. 2004 Jun;25(10-11):1522-9.

Department of Pathology, University Of Texas Medical Branch, 1.104
Keiller Building, 301 University Boulevard, Galveston, TX 77555-0609,
USA. elsbrana@utmb.edu

   Plasma viral load (VL) values and CD4(+) cell count are employed
clinically for initiation of therapy in the treatment of patients
infected with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), as previous clinical
studies have shown a marked prevalence of acquired immunodeficiency
syndrome (AIDS) development in seropositive individuals with VL values
over 30 000 copies/mL. Many studies have shown that reduced
glutathione (GSH) and cysteine (Cys) deficiency play an important role
in the infection. We have developed capillary zone electrophoresis
(CZE)-based assays and have used them to investigate the relationship
between plasma and intracellular thiol levels and HIV-1 viremia in
plasma. Blood samples from healthy volunteers and seropositive
patients undergoing different antiretroviral regimes were analyzed in
the study. The VL assay was based on CZE-UV detection of viral RNA at
260 nm. Determination of endogenous reduced Cys and GSH was achieved
by CZE-UV detection of their mercurial complexes at 200 nm. We found
that a decrease in GSH and Cys levels may be associated with disease
progress. In fact, reduced GSH and Cys levels appear progressively
reduced with increasing VL.

**
By contrast, this study showed no benefit, in terms of viral load (tho
not sure about other clinical parameters or markers like CD4) using a
more comprehensive protocol.

Batterham M, Gold J, Naidoo D, Lux O, Sadler S, Bridle S, Ewing M,
Oliver C. A preliminary open label dose comparison using an
antioxidant regimen to determine the effect on viral load and
oxidative stress in men with HIV/AIDS. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2001
Feb;55(2):107-14.

The Albion Street Centre, Randwick, Australia. marijka@uow.edu.au

   OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of antioxidant
supplementation on viral load and the antioxidant/reactive oxygen
species system in people with HIV. DESIGN: Single centre, prospective,
dose comparison study. SETTING: Outpatient clinic specializing in HIV
care. SUBJECTS: Sixty-six participants were sequentially recruited by
advertisement, and 48 subjects completed the study. INTERVENTIONS: A
recommended dose antioxidant regimen (5,450 IU vitamin A as
beta-carotene, 250 mg vitamin C, 100 IU vitamin E, 100 microg
selenium, 50 mg coenzyme Q10) or a high-dose antioxidant regimen
(21,800 IU vitamin A as beta-carotene, 1,000 mg vitamin C, 400 IU
vitamin E, 200 microg selenium, 200 mg coenzyme Q10) for a 12 week
period. RESULTS: Using repeated measures analysis of variance, the
changes over treatment time were significant for selenium,
glutathione, glutathione peroxidase and lipid peroxides (P < 0.03).
Changes in allantoin, uric acid and viral load were not significant (P
> 0.05). The main effects for group and the interaction effects were
not significant for any of the parameters measured (P > or = 0.05).
CONCLUSION: Antioxidant supplementation significantly improved some
measures of oxidative defence. There was no benefit in using a
high-dose supplement in this study.

**
Lee S, Almeida CA, French MA, Price P. Persistent HIV-1 replication
does not explain low levels of T-cell interferon-gamma mRNA and
elevated serum NO(2) (-)/NO(3) (-) in patients with stable CD4 T-cell
responses to HAART.  Clin Exp Immunol. 2004 Oct;138(1):110-5.

Department of Clinical Immunology and Biochemical Genetics, Royal
Perth Hospital, Perth, Western Australia. lees06@cyllene.uwa.edu.au

   HIV-1 infected patients adherent to HAART and displaying stable
increases in CD4 T-cell counts differ in their control of HIV
replication and one might expect this to reflect depressed immune
function. The importance of virological control in functional immune
reconstitution was investigated in HIV-1 infected patients who
maintained high or undetectable plasma HIV RNA levels over 2-4 years
on HAART (discordant and complete responders, respectively).
Immunocompetence and immune activation were assessed directly ex vivo
and after a short period of culture, as HIV replication in cultures
from viraemic patients may artificially depress responses. Expression
of cytokine (interferon-gamma, interleukin-5) and chemokine receptor
(CCR5, CRTH2) mRNA were determined and soluble CD30 and NO(2)
(-)/NO(3) (-) were measured in sera. Unstimulated cells from all
patients had low levels of IFNgamma mRNA relative to uninfected
controls. Discordant responders had more IFNgamma, IL-5 and CCR5 mRNA
in mitogen-stimulated PBMC than complete responders, where the
difference could be attributed to CD8-T-cells. Serum NO(2) (-)/NO(3)
(-) levels were significantly higher in all patients than controls,
with no difference between complete and discordant responders. Serum
CD30 levels were significantly higher in discordant responders. These
data indicate a persistent immune deficit in immune reconstituted
patients irrespective of HIV viral load and associate persistent viral
replication with lymphocyte activation, probably involving CD8
T-cells.
Chris Noble - 31 Aug 2005 01:50 GMT
> > The Perth Group explains this.  It's about oxidative stress (that is
> > what is being measured, indirectly).   If you don't understand what
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> will agree that it plays a role in disease progression in HIV and AIDS
> patients.

Oxidative stress plays a role in the pathogenesis of many RNA viruses
like influenza for example. Anti-oxidants may be able to reduce the
severity of some infections. For some reason the Perth Group do not
claim that the influenza virus does not exist and that oxidants are the
real cause of influenza.

> That has nothing to say about the root cause of AIDS though.  Due
> to the fact that patients in similar conditions of nutrition, health, and
> thus levels of oxidative stress who do not test positive for HIV do not
> progress to AIDS. While those patients with similar levels of oxidative
> stress who do test positive for HIV do indeed in the vast majority of cases
> if left untreated progress to AIDS.

In one of the studies that the Perth Group cite as evidence for their
theories they measured (I think - can't remember) intracellular
glutathione levels in HIV infected patients and in a control group.
Although on average HIV infected patients had lower levels a large
number of the control group had lower levels than some of the HIV
group. The ONE factor that alone predicted best whether a person would
die of AIDS was HIV infection. The Perth Group proved incapable of
understanding this.

Chris Noble
pauleewhiting - 31 Aug 2005 18:36 GMT
Brian, George, Gary and Chris,

This discusion about the influenza virus is the perfect lead-in to my next
quote followed by a "simple logic" question for all of you:

“There are many people with AIDS but without HIV, and a great many people
with HIV but without AIDS. These two facts mean that HIV=AIDS is much too
simple. Plausible, alternative, testable causes of impairment of the
immune system which may ultimately lead to AIDS should become part of
regular AIDS research.”

Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994

— Dr. Henk Loman, PhD, Professor of Biophysical Chemistry at the Free
University in Amsterdam.

My question is: Why is it no possible that the the "influenza virus" is
actually a *result* of the disease rather than the *cause* of it.

Now, I know you're going to say "That's CRAZY because the flu is KNOWN to
be contagious!  It's caused by the virus, you f.cking denialist!"

I would like to point out, however, that yawning is also HIGHLY
CONTAGIOUS, but that it's mechanisms are psychological, not microbial.

Is it possible - however nutty it may seem - that colds and flus are
actually psychologically contagious, just like a yawn.

And when someone around us gets sick (and our own health is in a reduced
state) we unconsciously create a state of ill health, just like when
someone yawns and everyone else around them, who is also tired, yawns as
well.

I know this is simplistic, but I love debating using only simple logic!

What do you guys think about this theory?

Yours truly,

-Paul Whiting
Brian Mailman - 01 Sep 2005 00:51 GMT
> Brian, George, Gary and Chris,
>
> This discusion about the influenza virus is the perfect lead-in to my next
> quote followed by a "simple logic" question for all of you:
>
> “There are many people with AIDS but without HIV,

Evidence, please?  Claims without numbers are .... well... as g'ma used
to say, paraphrased "think/believe/assume in one hand and sh.t in the
other and see which one's more real."

B/
Iconoclaster - 04 Sep 2005 23:51 GMT
I take it your grandma wasn't religious, Mr. Mailman?
Well, neither am I.  That's why I don't believe a word of the HIV story.
Brian Mailman - 05 Sep 2005 00:34 GMT
> I take it your grandma wasn't religious, Mr. Mailman?

Very, Ms. Claster.

B/
GMCarter - 01 Sep 2005 11:33 GMT
snip...
>My question is: Why is it no possible that the the "influenza virus" is
>actually a *result* of the disease rather than the *cause* of it.

No.
Brian Mailman - 01 Sep 2005 16:46 GMT
> snip...
>>My question is: Why is it no possible that the the "influenza virus" is
>>actually a *result* of the disease rather than the *cause* of it.
>
> No.

Well, if you have the mindset that trees cause the wind by waving their
branches....

B/
GMCarter - 01 Sep 2005 23:43 GMT
>> snip...
>>>My question is: Why is it no possible that the the "influenza virus" is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Well, if you have the mindset that trees cause the wind by waving their
>branches....

Oh, come on, Brian. We all KNOW that's how wind is generated!

Katrina reminds us why we have to get RID of all those hideous alien
beings that litter the country side with their horrifying dead leaves
and filling the atmosphere with Toxic Oxygen.

        Lucy Fur, yer angel of lite
Chris Noble - 02 Sep 2005 02:09 GMT
> Brian, George, Gary and Chris,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> immune system which may ultimately lead to AIDS should become part of
> regular AIDS research."

People who never smoked get lung cancer. Many people who smoke their
whole lives never get lung cancer. The idea that smoking causes lung
cancer is much too simple.

One of the greatest heros in science died recently
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1218554.stm

> My question is: Why is it no possible that the the "influenza virus" is
> actually a *result* of the disease rather than the *cause* of it.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I know this is simplistic, but I love debating using only simple logic!

Simplistic is a bit of an understatement. Your first premise is that
everyone else is as ignorant of science as you are.

The only thing that your argument demonstrates is that you are willing
to thow out the whole field of science to protect your pet ideas. Your
attitude is completely antiscience. You operate with a complete
disregard for evidence. You are a Denialist and a troll.

Chris Noble
pauleewhiting - 02 Sep 2005 03:48 GMT
"You are a Denialist and a troll."

Wow, Chris!  Those are pretty strong words for someone whose backed by
"thousands of scientific papers."  I am just trying to have a little fun
with you guys!  Jesus, lighten up a little...

Is your position so weak that you have to actually resort to calling an
administrative assistant in Portland, Oregon nasty names?

It's kinda funny how you always resort to name calling.  I would think
that if one were supporting an "irrefutable" theory, one would always come
from a place of dignity.

Ya know, I've kinda noticed that the apologists always seem to discredit
those who would question their precious, little theory.  It's kinda weird
that those who stand on "mountains of scientific data" find it necessary
to belittle those at the bottom of the heap who are questioning what all
that data really means!

Perhaps you can "best" Dr. James Hudson, PhD, Professor of Pathology and
Medicine, University of British Columbia by calling him a troll as well:

“I stopped going to AIDS meetings several years ago — I could no longer
stand the stress of restraining myself from getting up and shouting,
‘Rubbish!’”

“From the outset I was never convinced that HIV had a role to play in
AIDS, since the so-called evidence was unacceptable to me. However, I
learned to keep my views to myself for a long time until I realized that
there were many other ‘dissidents’ and doubters out there.”

“None of these investigators isolate actual viruses or viral genomes; all
they do is add some primers to a PCR mixture and pretend that the printout
represents HIV genomes. None of this has been proven, and furthermore the
PCR technique was never conceived as a quantitative measure of anything.
In view of this we should always qualify our usage of the term ‘viral
load,’ otherwise we fall into the trap of subscribing to their
hypothetical nonsense.”

“I do not believe there is an AIDS epidemic in Africa or Asia. People
there are still dying from the combined effects of chronic infectious
diseases plus malnutrition, poverty, and other factors, just as they
always have.”

Virusmyth.net
Chris Noble - 02 Sep 2005 04:27 GMT
> "You are a Denialist and a troll."
>
> Wow, Chris!  Those are pretty strong words for someone whose backed by
> "thousands of scientific papers."  I am just trying to have a little fun
> with you guys!  Jesus, lighten up a little...

Well that is pretty much the definition of a troll - someone that
initiates an internet discussion just to have a little fun. Your
motivation is not to learn. You are not interested in answers.

Chris Noble
pauleewhiting - 02 Sep 2005 16:21 GMT
George and Chris,

The "fun" I was referring to was the question I posed about whether
viruses were the cause of colds and flus, or the result of them.

And yes, Chris, I am NOT just interested answers!  I am interested in
QUESTIONS, because that is what science is founded upon.

Even Dr. Luc Montagnier, Virologist, co-discoverer of HIV, Pasteur
Institute, Paris has publically questioned HIV:

“AIDS does not inevitably lead to death, especially if you suppress the
co-factors that support the disease. It is very important to tell this to
people who are infected.... I think we should put the same weight now on
the co-factors as we have on HIV.”

“Psychological factors are critical in supporting immune function. If you
suppress this psychological support by telling someone he’s condemned to
die, your words alone will have condemned him.”

“We did not purify [isolate] ... We saw some particles but they did not
have the morphology [shape] typical of retroviruses ... They were very
different ... What we did not have, as I have always recognized it, is
that it was truly the cause of AIDS.”

Interview with Djamel Tahi-1997
Iconoclaster - 20 Sep 2005 23:49 GMT
Paul,

Does that mean that if somebody dies from the .357 Magnum Virus, the
bullet can be seen as a cofactor?
Aw, actually I shouldn't ask you this.  I should ask Mr. Nobe.  he's the
expert.
pauleewhiting - 04 Oct 2005 22:23 GMT
These remaining quotes from Alberta Reappraising AIDS Society are lovingly
dedicated to Gary Stein, who so kindly reminded me (albeit,
unintentionally) that I hadn't finished posting them:

“In 1994, (HIV co-discoverer) Robert Gallo quietly admitted that Kaposi’s
Sarcoma (KS) — the major AIDS defining illness in gay men — could not be
caused by HIV. But this was never reported in the mainstream press. Gallo
told the audience of scientists and activists at the ‘94 NIDA meeting that
HIV couldn’t cause KS and that he’d never even found it in T-cells, which
HIV is supposed to kill. He said, ‘I don’t know if I made this point
clear, but I think that everybody here knows — we never found HIV DNA in
the tumor cells of KS. And, in fact, we’ve never found HIV DNA in T-cells.
So in other words, we’ve never seen the role of HIV as transforming
[cancer-causing] in any way.’”

“This was in complete opposition to everything Gallo had ever said about
HIV or AIDS. But very few people paid attention to his retraction. The CDC
ignored it, and continues to tell people KS is an AIDS disease. When Gallo
was asked what, if not HIV, caused KS, he said, ‘The nitrites [poppers]
could be the primary factor’ because ‘mutagenesis is the most important
thing.’ It’s a very embarrassing situation for the AIDS establishment, and
they’ve kept it quiet. One of the two hallmark diseases of AIDS is now
clearly understood to be totally unrelated to AIDS or HIV.”

AIDS Debate, Boston Dig, 2003

— Liam Scheff, journalist

“[The evidence is] overwhelming that [Kaposi’s Sarcoma] is not caused by
HIV.”

Spin, Nov 1994

— Dr. Marcus Conant, Clinical Professor of Dermatology, University of
California, San Francisco

http://www.aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm
Chris Noble - 05 Oct 2005 01:40 GMT
The evidence is overwhelming that KS is caused by HHV8.

The evidence is overwhelming that infection with HIV increases the risk
of KS several orders of magnitude.

Immune reconstitution from HAART is an effective treatment for KS.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/

search for "kaposi's hiv"

I have already pointed out how the perth group deliberately mislead
their audience about the current status of research regarding KS and
HIV.

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.aids/msg/d02a2b5d9a456bbd

You are now doing the same.

Ignorance is curable.

Chris Noble
pauleewhiting - 05 Oct 2005 02:04 GMT
"The evidence is overwhelming that KS is caused by HHV8.

The evidence is overwhelming that infection with HIV increases the risk
of KS several orders of magnitude.

Immune reconstitution from HAART is an effective treatment for KS.

I have already pointed out how the perth group deliberately mislead
their audience about the current status of research regarding KS and
HIV.

You are now doing the same.

Ignorance is curable."

Chris, you have an *amazing* talent for giving validity to the words of
the "denialists" in your rush to disprove us.

If we're just spouting off a bunch of bullshit, as you cliam we are, why
respond to it?

Why do you have such an insatiable need to provide "overwhelming evidence"
to refute the assertions of people you say are ignorant or misleading?

Do you think the audience is too stupid to figure out whether they are
being "deliberately mislead"?

Why not just stay in your Ivory Tower and laugh at our insanity?

Why are you so urgently pressed to refute our "denial"?

What are you so worried about them finding out?

Ignorance *is* curable...

..it's called "discovering what they're so anxious to keep hidden from
you."

-Paul Whiting
Chris Noble - 05 Oct 2005 02:08 GMT
> Chris, you have an *amazing* talent for giving validity to the words of
> the "denialists" in your rush to disprove us.
>
> If we're just spouting off a bunch of bullshit, as you cliam we are, why
> respond to it?

Because ignorance can kill.

I do not want you or any one else do die unnecessarily.

Can you please address any comments to the issue rather attacking the
person.

Chris Noble
pauleewhiting - 05 Oct 2005 02:40 GMT
"Because ignorance can kill.

I do not want you or any one else do die unnecessarily.

Can you please address any comments to the issue rather attacking the
person."

Yes, Chris, I agree with you completely that "Ignorance *can* kill."

But a large part of "ignorance" is not considering all the available
information.

I pointed out your reaction to us "denialists," not as an attack, but as a
way to get those in the audience reading this debate to do one thing and
one thing only: question.

And I am sure you and I can both agree that questioning is not only
harmless, but healthy.

They're just questions, Chris.  Questions don't kill people, ignorance
does.
Chris Noble - 05 Oct 2005 03:07 GMT
> "Because ignorance can kill.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> They're just questions, Chris.  Questions don't kill people, ignorance
> does.

Asking rhetorical questions when you have absolutely no interest in the
answers is just a form of active ignorance.

You are not looking for answers. You are trying to maintain your
ignorance.

I have encouraged you several times to look at the evidence. You have
refused. You wnat to remain ignorant. You want to spread your ignorance
to others.

Why are you afraid of scientific evidence. It's just science.

Chris Noble
pauleewhiting - 05 Oct 2005 03:44 GMT
"Asking rhetorical questions when you have absolutely no interest in the
answers is just a form of active ignorance.

You are not looking for answers. You are trying to maintain your
ignorance.

I have encouraged you several times to look at the evidence. You have
refused. You wnat to remain ignorant. You want to spread your ignorance to
others.

Why are you afraid of scientific evidence. It's just science."

You're right, Chris.  I am not necessarily looking for answers.  I am
posing questions.

And if not necessarily looking for answers by posing questions is
"ignorance," then the entire scientific process is rife with it.

For, as we all know, scientific understanding does not lead to answers, it
leads to more questions.  

And science leads to more questions because questioning is the cornerstone
of science.

And the foundation of science is realizing that we must keep questioning.

So, I guess that makes me "guilty as charged."
GMCarter - 05 Oct 2005 12:40 GMT
snip
>For, as we all know, scientific understanding does not lead to answers, it
>leads to more questions.  

Wrong. Science leads to deeper understanding, some answers--and more
questions.

But here again--you have completely run away from ANY of the answers.

Why?

        George M. Carter
pauleewhiting - 06 Oct 2005 04:56 GMT
"But here again--you have completely run away from ANY of the answers.
Why?"

Because when the answers are like the one below, I have a tendency to run
in the other direction:

"Chemo does NOT cause CD4 cells to drop. They may cause other problems,
like anemia. But that ain't a drop in CD4 count, etc."

"Chemotherapy can make you more likely to get infections. This happens
because most anticancer drugs affect the bone marrow, making it harder to
make white blood cells (WBCs), the cells that fight many types of
infections."

GMCarter - 06 Oct 2005 12:31 GMT
>"But here again--you have completely run away from ANY of the answers.
>Why?"
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>make white blood cells (WBCs), the cells that fight many types of
>infections."

You can repeat that til your blue in the face but it DOES NOT MEAN the
non-stop, chronic loss of CD4 cells. Seen even in people who are NOT
using ARV--and indeed, ARV use results in INCREASING CD4 counts.

So you're hiding behind yet another sound bite lie that makes you feel
more comfortable.

        George M. Carter
DavidT - 06 Oct 2005 14:26 GMT
You ask questions.
Do you actually seek answers?
It seems not from your peurile responses. Therefore your "curiosity"
does not fall within the parameters of scientific enquiry.
You are, as Chris said, nothing but a troll.

"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of
fools. Let's start with typewriters."
Frank Lloyd Wright
pauleewhiting - 09 Oct 2005 01:08 GMT
>You ask questions.
>Do you actually seek answers?

I am just like the apologists who think they already have the answers. I
am simply here encouraging others to question as well...

>It seems not from your peurile responses. Therefore your "curiosity"
>does not fall within the parameters of scientific enquiry.
>You are, as Chris said, nothing but a troll.

Ah, name calling: the last, great argument of the apologists...

>"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of
>fools. Let's start with typewriters."
>Frank Lloyd Wright

Apparently, Frank was also referring to doctors who write letters, as
well...

?When Magic Johnson announced that he was infected by HIV, I wrote him a
letter saying that assuming he didn?t have any other disease or
condition that compromised his immune system, and assuming he didn?t
take AZT, I would wager $10,000 that he would not die of AIDS. I advised
Magic to un-retire and go back to playing in the N.B.A. He took that
advice, although I?m sure it was not because I sent him a letter. I
think it was highly unfortunate that he was forced to retire. I?m sure
that there are any number of players in the N.B.A. who are HIV-positive,
and none of them will get AIDS either, unless they have some other
disease or condition which compromises their immune system.?

?There were people who felt that a single-virus theory would be very
useful in helping to raise public awareness about the ?disease.? It
would help them get the research they thought was necessary and public
funding for its treatment by scaring people into believing that while
the disease was affecting gay men now, it was eventually going to spread
throughout the heterosexual population. This political definition of the
disease has proven to be inaccurate and inconsistent with its real
medical nature.?

Penthouse, April 1995

? Dr. Steven Jonas, MD, Professor of Preventive Medicine, State
University of New York at Stony Brook
Gary Stein - 10 Oct 2005 23:47 GMT
>>You ask questions.
>>Do you actually seek answers?
>
> I am just like the apologists who think they already have the answers. I
> am simply here encouraging others to question as well...

No your not like us at all, we will read data and change our opinions based
on new facts. You on the other find that impossible.

Gary Stein
pauleewhiting - 12 Oct 2005 02:47 GMT
"No your not like us at all, we will read data and change our opinions
based on new facts. You on the other find that impossible."

(Part One)

?There are many scientific facts which show that the so-called human
immunodeficiency virus (HIV) does not fulfil the epidemiological and
biological requirements, nor the common sense requirements, to be the
cause of the human immunodeficiency syndrome.?

Continuum, Spring 1998

- Dr. Roberto Giraldo, MD, specialist in internal medicine, infectious
and tropical diseases, New York. Former Chairman of the Department of
Microbiology and Parasitology, University of Antioquia, Medellin,
Colombia. Author, Aids and Stressors

?Buried deep within the secretive and well-guarded dogma that Aids is a
plague caused by the lethal virus known as HIV, there is a time bomb of
potentially explosive contrary information.?

?The hypothesis that HIV is the sole cause of AIDS simply does not fit
the clinical and epidemiological facts.?

Sunday Times, London, 7 June 1992

- Dr. Gordon Stewart, MD, Emeritus Professor of Public Health,
University of Glasgow. Former Consultant Physician (Epidemiology and
Preventive Medicine) to National Health Service (UK) and WHO

?The facts very clearly demonstrate that the endemic African
immunodeficiency has nothing to do with a hypothetical ?HIV,? but is,
rather, the result of malnutrition and its corollaries.?

December 8, 2003, address to European Parliament Conference on AIDS in
Africa, Brussels

- Dr. Marc Deru, MD, Belgian physician

?AIDS is a government-defined disease. The CDC and government-funded
investigators accept as fact the supposition that ?HIV causes AIDS and
is sexually transmitted.? This is not to be questioned. But this
HIV-AIDS model does not jibe with the true facts of the matter. Only 1
in 1000 unprotected sexual contacts transmits HIV, and only 1 in 275 US
citizens has antibodies to this virus. Consequently, the average
uninfected person would need to have 275,000 random unprotected sexual
contacts to acquire sexually transmitted HIV.?

Letter to Virusmyth.net

- Dr. Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD, Professor of Surgery, University of
Washington School of Medicine

?HIV does not cause AIDS. There is no scientific evidence that HIV can
kill infected T4 cells. The true problem is that the leaders of the HIV
hypothesis have been ignoring important medical facts and are blindly
attributing AIDS to the HIV virus. It is very sad and frustrating to
know that the AIDS establishment are giving highly toxic drugs such as
AZT to pregnant women even with studies that show the depression in the
immune system can be reversed by nutrition. Prescribing anti-viral drugs
to AIDS patients is like putting gasoline on a fire.?

Virusmyth.net, 2 May 2001

- Dr. Mohammad Ali Al-Bayati, PhD, Toxicologist and Pathologist,
California. Author, Get all the facts: HIV does not cause AIDS.

??I regard as dangerous to censor or suppress information, and to allow
a situation to develop when people appear unable to distinguish between
facts and an orthodox view. The [Aids] orthodox view is accepted
uncritically by people at large as a result of mass conditioning by the
media?s uncritical acceptance of the scientific orthodoxy, and the
refusal to publish information which goes counter to the orthodoxy.?

Yale Scientific, Spring 1999

??Thus the [National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases? Aids]
?Fact Sheet? does not contain facts. It contains propaganda. It
continues to provide evidence that you guys at NIH, CDC, NIAID can?t
tell the difference between a fact and a hole in the ground.?

Letter to CDC Director David Satcher - Yale Scientific, Spring 1999

?The CDC Report is written under the unstated axiom that there is such a
thing as ?HIV disease?, whatever that means. Then officials try to fit
experimental facts into this axiom, and are thereby led to what are
euphemistically called ?paradoxes?, actually inconsistencies and
contradictions.?

Letter to CDC director David Satcher, 12 August 1997

- Dr. Serge Lang, PhD, Professor of Mathematics, Yale University;
awarded the Dylan Hixon ?88 Prize for Teaching Excellence in the Natural
Sciences; also the Steel and Cole prizes of the American Mathematical
Society; Author of 37 books; former Fulbright Scholar; Member, US
National Academy of Sciences

?One does not need to be a scientific specialist to recognise a botched
research job and a scientific establishment that is distorting the facts
to maximise its funding. That establishment continues to doctor
statistics and misrepresent the situation to keep the public convinced
that a major viral pandemic is underway when the facts are otherwise.?

Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994

- Phillip Johnson, Senior Professor of Law, University of California at
Berkeley

??In some countries HIV has been associated with diarrhea, in others
with wasting syndrome, in others with dementia and in others with
Kaposi?s Sarcoma, among many other diseases that appear differently and
according to the studied country, making HIV a geographically selective
virus.?

?These facts and incongruities, added to?the existence of more than 70
clinical and laboratory situations in which the HIV tests produce false
positives, including the Trypanosoma cruzi infection recently detected
by our group, or, worse still, the nonisolation to date of the same HIV,
after almost 20 years of investigation?makes it an urgent necessity to
analyze other concepts and to explore other etiologies different from
the viral one, with the purpose of helping to clarify, a little more,
these intricate problems of public health?and all those enigmatic and
amazing germs that today already belong to the new family of HiV, the
Human Imagination Viruses.? [Translated from Spanish]

Retrovirus, micotoxinas, immunosupresi?n y neurodegeneraci?n. 2002,
Revista De Neurolog?a

- Dr. Fidias E. Le?n-Sarmiento, MD, PhD, Professor, Department of
Internal Medicine and Basic Sciences, Universidad Industrial de
Santander, Bucaramanga, Colombia, Senior Research Fellow, National
Institutes of Health, Washington DC;

- Marta Carpintero de Jimeno, M.Sc., Laboratorio Qu?mico de Monitoreo
Ambiental (LAQMA). Bogot?, Colombia
Gary Stein - 12 Oct 2005 17:47 GMT
I see a group of unsupported personal opinions quoted bellow Pauly I do not
see any data to back it up. When your able to provide that data I will be
more then willing to read it and adjust my opinions if the data warrants
such and adjustment.

Gary Stein

> "No your not like us at all, we will read data and change our opinions
> based on new facts. You on the other find that impossible."
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
> Sent via Health Newsgroups
> http://www.healthnewsgroups.com 
pauleewhiting - 13 Oct 2005 03:41 GMT
>I see a group of unsupported personal opinions quoted bellow Pauly I do not
>see any data to back it up. When your able to provide that data I will be
>more then willing to read it and adjust my opinions if the data warrants
>such and adjustment.

Tell ya what, Gary, why don't you personally contact all of the
following individuals, since they have all been publicly quoted as
having questioned some aspect of the HIV=AIDS hypothesis, and ask them
to provide you with the data to back up their personal opinions:

(Part One)

- Dr. Kary Mullis, PhD, Biochemist, Winner, 1993 Nobel Prize for
Chemistry for inventing the polymerase chain reaction, the basis for the
HIV viral load tests.
- Dr. David Rasnick, PhD, Biochemist, Protease Inhibitor Developer,
University of California
- Dr. Charles Thomas, PhD, former Professor of Biochemistry, Harvard and
Johns Hopkins Universities. Former chair of the Cell Biology Department,
Scripps Research Institute
- Dr. Beverly E. Griffin, PhD, Director, Department of Virology, Royal
Postgraduate Medical School, London
- Dr. Roberto Giraldo, MD, specialist in internal medicine, infectious
and tropical diseases, New York. Former Chairman of the Department of
Microbiology and Parasitology, University of Antioquia, Medellin,
Colombia. Author, Aids and Stressors
- Dr. Walter Gilbert, PhD, Professor of Molecular Biology, Harvard
University. Winner, 1980 Nobel Prize for chemistry
- Dr. Gordon Stewart, MD, Emeritus Professor of Public Health,
University of Glasgow. Former Consultant Physician (Epidemiology and
Preventive Medicine) to National Health Service (UK) and WHO
- Dr. Marc Deru, MD, Belgian physician
- Dr. Henk Loman, PhD, Professor of Biophysical Chemistry at the Free
University in Amsterdam
- Dr. Fabio Franci, MD, Specialist in Preventive Medicine and Infectious
Diseases, Trieste, Italy
- Dr. James Hudson, PhD, Professor of Pathology and Medicine, University
of British Columbia
- Dr. Marcus Conant, Clinical Professor of Dermatology, University of
California, San Francisco
- Dr. Steven Jonas, MD, Professor of Preventive Medicine, State
University of New York at Stony Brook
- Dr. Alfred Hassig, MD, Professor in Immunology, University of Bern,
former Director Swiss Red Cross blood banks;
- Dr. Heinrich Kremer, MD, Germany;
- Dr. Lawrence Badgley, MD, San Francisco. Author, Healing Aids
Naturally
- Dr. A. Hassig, MD;
- Prof. Wen-Xi Liang, MD;
- Dr. Kurt Stampfli, MD
- All from the Study Group on Nutrition and Immunity, Bern, Switzerland
- Dr. Hiram Caton, PhD, Ethicist, Head of the School of Applied Ethics
at Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
- Dr. Robert De Prato, MD, US Dept. of Defense. Portland, Oregon
- Dr. Peter Duesberg, PhD, Professor of Molecular Biology, University of
California, member, National Academy of Sciences, first to map the
genetic structure of retroviruses. Five-time recipient of the National
Institutes of Health?s Outstanding Investigator Grant. (All federal
grants terminated when he started challenging the HIV theory). Author,
Inventing the AIDS Virus
- Dr. Sam Mhlongo, MD, Head of the Department of Family Medicine and
Primary Health Care at the Medical University of South Africa,
Johannesburg
- Dr. Harry Rubin, Professor of Molecular Biology, University of
California, Berkeley
- Dr. Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD, Professor of Surgery, University of
Washington School of Medicine
- Dr. Mohammad Ali Al-Bayati, PhD, Toxicologist and Pathologist,
California. Author, Get all the facts: HIV does not cause AIDS.
- Dr. Otto Raabe, PhD, Professor and Director, Institute of Toxicology
and Environmental Health, University of California, Davis
- Dr. Joseph Mercola, former Chairman of the Family Medicine department
at St. Alexius Medical Center, Hoffman Estates, Illinois; served as
editor of HIV Monograph by Abbott Laboratories published in 1989 and
distributed to physicians nationally. Editor of www.mercola.com, one of
the top 10 health websites on the internet
- Dr. Stephen Miles, AIDS specialist, University of California Medical
Center, Los Angeles
- Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, MD, New York Physician, founder of the American
Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR)
- Dr. Michael Lange, MD, Head of AIDS Programme, St. Lukes Hospital, New
York
- Dr. Donald Abrams, MD, Professor of Medicine, University of
California, San Francisco; Director of AIDS Program, San Francisco
General Hospital
- Dr. Frank Shallenberger, MD, former professor, University of
California School of Medicine at Davis and John F. Kennedy University in
Orinda, California; Secretary, Orthomolecular Medical Society; Medical
Board of Directors, Huxley Institute for Biosocial Research; Founding
Director of the International Bio-Oxidative Medicine Foundation
- Dr. Gary Null, PhD, syndicated host of Natural Living with Gary Null,
author (AIDS, A Second Opinion), and a producer of PBS special programs.
His Deconstructing the Myth of AIDS won the Audience Award for Best
Documentary at both the New York and Los Angeles International
Independent Film and Video Festivals
- Dr. Martin Feldman, MD, Assistant Clinical Professor of Neurology at
Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, graduate of Columbia
University?s College of Physicians and Surgeons, author of more than 50
articles published in peer-reviewed medical journals
- Dr. Simon Wain-Hobson, Pasteur Institute, Paris
- Dr. Craig Michael Uhl, MD, former U.S. Navy physician, California
- Dr. Stuart Brody, PhD, Adjunct Research Associate Professor of Medical
Psychology, University of Tubingen, Germany. Author, Sex at Risk
- Dr. Xin M. Tu, PhD, Harvard University School of Public Health,
Associate Professor, Department of Biostatistics and Epidemiology,
University of Pennsylvania
- Dr. B.L. Meel, MD, Head, Department of Forensic Medicine, University
of Transkei, South Africa
- Dr. Valendar Turner, MD, Royal Perth Hospital, University of Western
Australia
- Dr. Serge Lang, PhD, Professor of Mathematics, Yale University;
awarded the Dylan Hixon ?88 Prize for Teaching Excellence in the Natural
Sciences; also the Steel and Cole prizes of the American Mathematical
Society; Author of 37 books; former Fulbright Scholar; Member, US
National Academy of Sciences
- Dr. Manu Kothari, MD, Professor of Anatomy, former Head of Department
of Anatomy, Seth Gordhandas Sunderdas Medical College, King Edward
Memorial Hospital, Mumbai, India
GMCarter - 13 Oct 2005 11:56 GMT
snip
>- Dr. Marcus Conant, Clinical Professor of Dermatology, University of
>California, San Francisco

LOL...he'd sue for libel if he knew his name was being used like this.
I think I'll let him know.

>- Dr. Steven Jonas, MD, Professor of Preventive Medicine, State
>University of New York at Stony Brook

Believes HIV causes AIDS. That's a lie.

>- Dr. Alfred Hassig, MD, Professor in Immunology, University of Bern,
>former Director Swiss Red Cross blood banks;

For the third time....

>- Dr. Heinrich Kremer, MD, Germany;
>- Dr. Lawrence Badgley, MD, San Francisco. Author, Healing Aids
>Naturally
>- Dr. A. Hassig, MD;

Here he is again!

>- Prof. Wen-Xi Liang, MD;

I doubt it.

>- Dr. Joseph Sonnabend, MD, New York Physician, founder of the American
>Foundation for AIDS Research (AmFAR)

Dead cold lie. Believes HIV causes AIDS.

>- Dr. Michael Lange, MD, Head of AIDS Programme, St. Lukes Hospital, New
>York

Dead cold lie. Believes HIV causes AIDS.

>- Dr. Donald Abrams, MD, Professor of Medicine, University of
>California, San Francisco; Director of AIDS Program, San Francisco
>General Hospital

Dead cold lie. Believes HIV causes AIDS.

>- Dr. Gary Null, PhD,

A complete thief and idiot that sells his f.cking crap for outrageous
prices and I do NOT believe he is a PhD.

>- Dr. Martin Feldman, MD, Assistant Clinical Professor of Neurology at
>Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, graduate of Columbia
>University’s College of Physicians and Surgeons, author of more than 50
>articles published in peer-reviewed medical journals

Dead cold lie. Believes HIV causes AIDS.

>- Dr. Simon Wain-Hobson, Pasteur Institute, Paris

Dead cold lie. Believes HIV causes AIDS.

How many more on this list are being libeled in this fashion?

        George M. Carter
Fondoo - 14 Oct 2005 08:17 GMT
  Is this the list of folks that question the HIV/AIDS theory? In another
words they can question part of the theory and or treatment. I don't think
this list was promoted as a black and white line on total belief or
non-belief of HIV.
  Like many think treating oxidative stress as more beneficial than ARV's
. Or that ARV’s can be useful in short term OI treatment but not long term
virus control.
 Many I think believe HIV to be a cofactor but that it's wrong focus on
this search for a magic bullet
 Am I wrong?
Chris Noble - 14 Oct 2005 09:07 GMT
> Is this the list of folks that question the HIV/AIDS theory? In another
> words they can question part of the theory and or treatment. I don't think
> this list was promoted as a black and white line on total belief or
> non-belief of HIV.

The list is found here.

Somebody has cut out all the quotes to just leave the names.

http://www.aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm

The title of the webpage reads

IS "HIV" REALLY THE CAUSE OF AIDS?
ARE THERE REALLY ONLY "A FEW"
SCIENTISTS WHO DOUBT THIS?

Which is then followed by

Over 2,000 scientists, medical professionals, authors and academics are
on record that the "Hiv-Aids" theories, routinely reported to the
public as if they were facts, are dubious to say the least.

A large number of the people that are then listed do not doubt that HIV
causes AIDS.

This website is intentionally misleading. It is dishonest.

Even with people like Winstone Zulu who has in the past doubted whether
HIV causes AIDS have rethought their position. Why are his current
views not listed?

Winston Zulu was also featured in Maggiore's film.

http://www.theothersideofaids.com/images/the_other_side_of_aids_transcript.pdf

What you won't find in this transcript is what happened to him in the
time that he stopped taking ARVs.

His CD4 counts fell from 500 to 34 and he became seriously ill. Zulu
then had another rethink and concluded that ARVs are beneficial. Since
that time he has restarted treatment and has recovered his health.

http://www.impactaids.org.uk/newsletter/Sept27-04.htm
http://www.positivenation.co.uk/issue80_81/features/feature1/feature1_1.htm

Chris Noble
Chris Noble - 14 Oct 2005 09:55 GMT
Read Winston Zulu's words.

Others didn't find them credible. Why was Zulu drawn to their ideas?
"I was already looking for a way out, something that meant I wasn't
inevitably going to die. So here were these people saying, 'It's all
been this vast mistake. It's not what causes Aids.' Looking back, I
think it was about wishing Aids away."

http://www.positivenation.co.uk/issue80_81/features/feature1/feature1_2.htm

Chris Noble
Fondoo - 15 Oct 2005 02:26 GMT
 I would like to see updates to peoples changing ideas and there stories
as well. It's so important to understand neither side is completely right
both sides have important points and directions that should be followed.
  It's wrong to spend so much on the bug hunt and so little on holistic
ways that could make HIV a non-issue
Brian Mailman - 14 Oct 2005 20:46 GMT
>    Is this the list of folks that question the HIV/AIDS theory? In another
> words they can question part of the theory and or treatment. I don't think
> this list was promoted as a black and white line on total belief or
> non-belief of HIV.

Actually, it was.  Another newsgroup, sci.med.aids, was a moderated
newsgroup (not a 'list') and the moderators finally decided that
discussin of whether HIV exists or not, and discussion of whether if it
does exist, does HIV cause AIDS was offtopic.

There was this fellow who decided to form an _unmoderated_ group where
those topics would be welcome, and he had enough support to be able to
pass the vote (lots of techno-stuff in forming a newsgroup deleted!!).

Later on, he became very ill and died, but before he died he recanted
his non-beliefs in HIV.

>Many I think believe HIV to be a cofactor but that it's wrong focus on
> this search for a magic bullet
>   Am I wrong?

Yes.

B/
Fondoo - 15 Oct 2005 00:30 GMT
http://aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm Is this a different list? It is promoted
as people who question some or all of the AIDS theory
GMCarter - 15 Oct 2005 12:07 GMT
>http://aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm Is this a different list? It is promoted
>as people who question some or all of the AIDS theory

It is different as it includes a lot of people who are not MDs, etc.
The other list purported to be one that supported the notion that many
professionals are denialists.

This is a false impression. Again, the list you cite is old. People
like Casper Schmidt died of AIDS years ago. Joe Sonnabend is NOT a
denialist. Nor is Shyh-Ching Lo. Other names are repeated.

The parameters for getting placed on the list are vague. How was the
list created? They note that "Some of the people below question only
key parts of the Hiv theory, not all of it."

What does that mean?

And do they update it when people's views change? Have all these
people been queried?

The list does NOT support the notion that a lot of professionals
believe that HIV doesn't exist (that's just a very tiny minority of
crackpots)--nor even that HIV is the cause of AIDS. Just that some
folks still have questions about it.

Indeed, I have long questioned HOW HIV causes AIDS. Direct
cytopathicity? I don't think so. Clearly, a lot of T cells that die
are uninfected. Immune activation seems to be the real culprit (and
associated oxidative stress that can come with that). On a macro
level, the effect on the gut even at acute infection is massive--and
preserving and sustaining gut health should be a part of HIV care
(e.g., acidophilus, bifidus, maybe S. boulardii, glutamine, multi,
NAC, whey).

Clearly, there are therapeutic implications to a broader understanding
of HIV and AIDS pathogenesis, respectively.

And indeed, if the parameters are that loose, then we're all on the
same side....one might place a few folks at an extreme end that cling
to the notion that HIV's direct cytopathicity is the sole cause of
AIDS. But I'm not sure there are that many people that believe that.

Another way to frame the question to verify the validity of such a
list is if these people all agree ARV should never be used. I'll bet a
LOT of folks would no longer be on that list that currently are. (At
least among the living ones.)

        George M. Carter
pauleewhiting - 12 Oct 2005 02:58 GMT
"No your not like us at all, we will read data and change our opinions
based on new facts. You on the other find that impossible."

(Part Two)

?Duesberg outlined a controlled experiment on hemophiliacs and stated
that he would formally print a retraction of his views if someone could
assemble the facts to prove him wrong. As detailed in his new book,
Duesberg?s main claim was that it was the foreign proteins in the
blood-clotting factor, factor VIII, that were causing immunosuppression,
not HIV. Patients taking purified, recombinant factor VIII would have a
stronger immune system and would consequently be healthier.

?I contacted an acquaintance, a professor of biostatistics at Berkeley,
and we went looking for the data. We were neutral, simply eager to
contribute to settling this unsettling affair. We are still waiting.
More accurately, we have given up. We never were allowed access to
taxpayer-funded data. We waited in lunchrooms of prestigious hospitals
before realizing that our host was not going to appear with the data and
was too embarrassed to join us for lunch. Our phone calls were never
answered.

?After the passage of more than 15 years and the expenditure of more
than $30 billion, surely we must establish whether the HIV hypothesis is
true or false. Duesberg has ?put up.? It?s time for others to either
make him ?shut up,? through scientific evidence, or for them to engage
in the highest of scientific virtues: rethinking their positions in the
face of new evidence.?

California Monthly June 1996

- Dr. Paul Rabinow, PhD, Professor of Anthropology, University of
California, Berkeley, author most recently of Making PCR: A Story of
Biotechnology

?It?s time we all examine the facts behind the doom reports coming out
of the CDC, UNAIDS etc. Nobody should be given a death sentence based on
the results of nonspecific and inaccurate tests. The ?gay media? need to
take a ?drug holiday? from advertising antiretroviral meds, and start
dealing with the real issues. And the 15 billion (of our tax money)
pledged by the administration to fight ?AIDS in Africa? via AZT and
abstinence programs, should rather be used to provide people there with
clean water, and to rein in malaria and other endemic diseases.?

Letter to editor, Boston Dig
<http://www.weeklydig.com/index.cfm/issueID/0decc5c3-79f1-46e3-a8fa-1ee4
4b21dcfd/fuseaction/Article.view/issueID/53b34d62-192b-4fc3-b38d-01d0e81
fc58e/articleID/e23575ea-8f28-4627-b1d9-f1393f6a194c/nodeID/1f8d80f1-1d6
3-4759-b277-66449307b413>

- Alexei Trofimov, PhD, Dept. of Radiation Oncology, Massachusetts
General Hospital, Harvard Medical School

?There is so much haywire about the ?facts? surrounding the ?epidemic?
that anyone with an open and half way intelligent mind should be able to
smell something wrong. The fact that so many are emotionally attached to
this is the major problem... it?s like a religion to them.?

?Fear is the greatest enemy and those who use it to manipulate others
are the enemy of truth and freedom.?

Aids Myth Exposed Forum 7/6/2004

- Dr. Dennis Kinnane, DOM (Doctor of Oriental Medicine), B.Ph., M.Sc.,
Licensed Acupuncturist, Herbologist and Pharmacist, Torrance, California

?I wonder if there is a virus that causes people to be closed-minded,
refusing to consider facts that challenge what they thought they knew?
Now there is an epidemic that could seriously threaten humanity (and
already has, as witnessed by the poisoning of thousands under the guise
of [Aids] ?therapy? ).?

Rethinking AIDS Digest, Oct 3, 1997

- Todd Miller, PhD, Assistant Professor, Department of Molecular and
Cellular Pharmacology, University of Miami School of Medicine, Florida

??Thus HIV and AIDS are not inevitably correlated, let alone proven to
be causally connected??

??The drugs that supposedly kill HIV and protect against AIDS actually
produce AIDS-like effects? A diagnosis of HIV infection followed by the
conventional treatment will produce AIDS if the ?therapy? is continued
long enough. That is one reason why conventional treatment now
increasingly incorporates ?holidays? from drugs - whereas initially it
had been claimed that any failure to take the drugs faithfully every day
would cause the virus to rebound catastrophically.?

??To repeat?there are no scientific publications proving that HIV causes
AIDS. As I?ve now illustrated, many facts seem inexplicable if HIV is
thought to cause AIDS.?

http://www.arlingtoninstitute.org/futuredition/henry_bauer_aids.htm

- Dr. Henry Bauer, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry & Science
Studies and Dean Emeritus of Arts & Sciences at Virginia Polytechnic
Institute & State University; Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of
Scientific Exploration; Author, Fatal Attractions: The Troubles with
Science, Scientific Literacy and the Myth of the Scientific Method,
Science or Pseudoscience: Magnetic Healing, Psychic Phenomena, and other
heterodoxies and other books

?Dennis Byrne?s scathing attack on the Illinois legislature for its
refusal to force all pregnant women in the state to undergo HIV testing
and drug treatment left out at least four crucial facts: Pregnancy
itself is one of the 70 known causes of false positives on the ?HIV?
tests. The journal AIDS (vol. 13, pp 927-933, 1999), confirms that
infants born to ?HIV positive? mothers treated with AZT, one of the
genotoxic and immunocompromising compounds used to fight ?the virus,?
were more likely to get severely sick and die by the age of three than
infants whose mothers were not treated. Nevirapine, touted as a new way
to prevent mother to child transmission in Africa, was withdrawn for
consideration of such use in this country [USA] because of numerous
deaths during its trials in Uganda and South Africa. In the June 2, 2002
Journal of Virology, researchers reported that protease inhibitor drugs
Crixivan (indinavir) and Invarase (saquinavir) caused T cell death in
healthy HIV negative donor blood in three separate experiments.

?Perhaps the Illinois legislature is wise to keep decisions regarding
testing and treatment outside the law.?

Letter to Chicago Tribune, 2003

- Andrew Maniotis, PhD, Program Director, Cell and Developmental Biology
of Cancer, Departments of Pathology, Anatomy and Cell Biology, and
Bioengineering, University of Illinois at Chicago
Gary Stein - 12 Oct 2005 17:48 GMT
Again where's the Data Pauly??????????????/

Gary Stein

> "No your not like us at all, we will read data and change our opinions
> based on new facts. You on the other find that impossible."
>
> (Part Two)
pauleewhiting - 13 Oct 2005 03:47 GMT
>Again where's the Data Pauly??????????????/

Tell ya what, Gary, why don't you personally contact all of the
following individuals, since they have been publicly quoted as having
questioned the HIV=AIDS hypothesis, and ask them to provide you with
data to back up their personal opinions:

(Part Two)

- Dr. Paul Cheney, MD, PhD, internist, North Carolina
- Dr. Claus Koehnlein, MD, AIDS specialist, Kiel, Germany
- Dr. Bob L. Owen, PhD, author, Roger?s Recovery from AIDS
- Dr. Frank Buianouckas, PhD, Professor of Mathematics, City University
of New York
- Dr. Lawrence Bradford, PhD, Associate Professor of Biology,
Benedictine College, Kansas
- Dr. Ralph Moss, author, The Cancer Industry
- Dr. Casper Schmidt, MD, New York
- Dr. Etienne de Harven, MD, Emeritus Professor of Pathology, University
of Toronto
- Dr. Richard Strohman, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Molecular and Cell
Biology, University of California, Berkeley; former Director of the
Health and Medical Sciences Program at UC Berkeley
- Dr. Bernard Forscher, PhD, former editor of the US Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences
- Dr. Michael Ellner, medical hypnotherapist and educator, President,
HEAL, New York. Member of The National Institutes of Health (NIH)
Complimentary Therapies Working Group (1989-1992). Named Educator of the
Year by the National Guild of Hypnotists (1995) and the National
Federation of NeuroLinguistic Psychologists (1997)
- Dr. Roger Cunningham, PhD, microbiologist, director, Centre for
Immunology, School of Medicine, State University of New York at Buffalo
- Dr. Juan Jose Flores, MD, PhD, Professor of Medicine, La Universidad
Veracruzana, Mexico
- Dr. Nagesh Shirgoppikar, AIDS specialist, Salvation Army Clinic,
Mumbai, India
- Dr. Arthur Gottlieb, MD, Chairperson of the Department of Microbiology
and Immunology, Tulane University School of Medicine
- Dr. Alfred Hassig, MD, Professor of Immunology at the University of
Bern; Past president of the German Society of Transfusion Medicine and
Immunohaematology and the International Society of Blood Transfusion
- Dr. Randall R. ?Rush? Wayne, M.A., Molecular Biology, Harvard
University, PhD, Biochemistry, University of California
- Dr. Heinz Ludwig S?nger, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Molecular Biology
and Virology and a former director of the Department of Viroid Research,
Max Planck Institute for Biochemistry, Germany; recipient of the
international Robert Koch award for medical research, 1978
- Dr. Stefan Lanka, Virologist, PhD, University of Koblenz, Vice
President, Science, Medicine and Human Rights, Germany
- Dr. Rodney Richards, PhD, Biochemist, Founding scientist for the
biotech company Amgen. Collaborated with Abbott Laboratories in
developing some of the first HIV tests
- Dr. John Heilbron, PhD, Professor of History and History of Science
and former Vice Chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley
- Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, M.Sc., Department of Medical Physics:
Royal Perth Hospital, University of Western Australia, Perth.
- Valendar F. Turner, MD, Department of Emergency Medicine: Royal Perth
Hospital.
- John M. Papadimitriou, MD, PhD, Professor of Pathology: Royal Perth
Hospital.
- David Causer, PhD, Department of Medical Physics: Royal Perth
Hospital.
- Barry Page, M.Sc., Department of Medical Physics: Royal Perth
Hospital.
- Dr. Helman Alfonso, MD, Director of Research, Universidad
Metropolitana Barranquilla, Colombia; author, in Spanish, The Great
Fiasco: AIDS Is Not Caused by HIV
- Dr. Heinz Spranger, PhD, DDM. German Nosologist and Semiotist, and
Practitioner in Periodontology and Oral Medicine. Former founder and
Dean of the Faculty of Oral Medicine at the University Witten/Herdecke,
former head of the Department of Periodontology and Oral Medicine,
Johann Wolfgang Goethe University, Frankfurt/Main. Recipient of the
German Ribbon of the Order of the Distinguished Service Cross for his
humanitarian scientific efforts
- Dr. Vladimir Koliadin, PhD, Senior Research Scientist, State Aerospace
University, Kharkov, Ukraine
- Dr. David Mertz, PhD, Philosopher of Science, University of
Massachusetts, Amherst
- Dr. Anthony I. Okoh, PhD, Lecturer, Department Of Microbiology,
Obafemi Awolowo University, Ile-Ife, Nigeria
- Dr. Rudolf Werner, PhD, Professor of Biochemistry, University of Miami
School of Medicine
- Dr. Maurizio Luca-Moretti, MD, PhD, president, Inter American Medical
and Health Association
- Dr. George Milowe, MD, Melrose-Wakefield Hospital, Malden,
Massachusetts
- Dr. Hansueli Albonico, MD, Langnau, Switzerland
- Dr. Charles L. Geshekter, PhD, three-time Fulbright scholar. Professor
of African History, California State University, Chico. Former chair of
the History of Science, Pacific Division, of the American Association
for the Advancement of Sciences. He has served as an adviser to the U.S.
State Department and several African governments
- Dr. Rosalind Harrison, Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons,
consultant opthalmic surgeon for the National Health Service, UK
- Dr. Fidias E. Le?n-Sarmiento, MD, PhD, Professor, Department of
Internal Medicine and Basic Sciences, Universidad Industrial de
Santander, Bucaramanga, Colombia, Senior Research Fellow, National
Institutes of Health, Washington DC
- Dr. Matthew Irwin, MD, Washington, DC
- Dr. Ching-Chee Chan, PhD in physical chemistry, University of
Manchester, UK, 1967; AIDS researcher and writer, Canada
- Dr. Howard Urnovitz, PhD, Microbiologist and Immunologist, Science
Director, Chronic Illness Research Foundation, co-founder and CEO,
Chronix Biomedical. Dr. Urnovitz?s team developed the only FDA-licensed
urine-based diagnostic test for antibodies to HIV
- Dr. Paul Rabinow, PhD, Professor of Anthropology, University of
California, Berkeley, author most recently of Making PCR: A Story of
Biotechnology
- Dr. George L. Gabor Miklos, PhD, Chief Scientific Officer, Human
Genetic Signatures, Sydney, Australia; Director, Secure Genetics,
Sydney; Consultant in Functional Genomics to Novartis Pharmaceuticals
and to the CELERA Human, Mouse and Drosophila Genome Projects. Formerly
with University of California, University of Washington, University of
Edinburgh, the Neurosciences Institute, The SCRIPPS Research Institute
and the Australian National University
- Dr. Stuart W. Dwyer, MD, part time district surgeon (forensic medical
officer), Grahamstown, South Africa
GMCarter - 13 Oct 2005 11:41 GMT
>>Again where's the Data Pauly??????????????/
>
>Tell ya what, Gary, why don't you personally contact
>- Dr. Casper Schmidt, MD, New York

He was my friend. He died of AIDS.
GMCarter - 13 Oct 2005 11:42 GMT
snip
>- Dr. Michael Ellner, medical hypnotherapist and educator, President,
>HEAL,

This psychotic windbag is NOT a doctor. What a f.cking joke.

The founder of mha had some choice stories about this fellow's bizarre
behavior.
Gary Stein - 13 Oct 2005 22:47 GMT
Which one's the Math teacher, the hypnotherapist, the history Professor, the
Nosologist, the Aerospace scientist, the Philosopher, the Professor of
African History, the Professor of Anthropology I mean gee don't those sound
like the folks you would want giving you medical advice?

Gary Stein

>>Again where's the Data Pauly??????????????/
>
> Tell ya what, Gary, why don't you personally contact all of the
> following individuals, since they have been publicly quoted as having
> questioned the HIV=AIDS hypothesis, and ask them to provide you with
> data to back up their personal opinions:
pauleewhiting - 12 Oct 2005 03:05 GMT
"No your not like us at all, we will read data and change our opinions
based on new facts. You on the other find that impossible."

(Part Three)

?I began looking into the AIDS question about 12 years ago. I began to
read articles, and started to ask questions of my own to anyone who
would answer. Invariably, those defending the conventional wisdom soon
dropped out of the conversation when confronted with the simplest of
facts. More than that, I couldn?t get my questions answered. Having a
doctorate in psychology, the responses sounded a lot like
?psycho-babble.?

?Within a short period of time - less then a few months - it was clear
to me AIDS was not what it was supposed to be. The virus was harmless. I
concluded a cure could never be found for a disease that did not exist.
I was on a mission of sorts, though my newly found truth was mostly met
with scorn by other professionals, and for that matter, from friends and
family too.?

?By 1993 I figured the truth was an inevitable consequence for even the
casual skeptic who looked at the evidence and history of the so-called
AIDS epidemic. It was just a matter of time - and a short time it would
be. After all, just a few questions into a discussion about AIDS with
any expert in the field and you?ll usually hear ?...that?s just one of
the oddities about this strange virus? and/or ?the virus continually
mutates,? often followed with the idea the experts are just on the tail
of this little bugger when it morphs into something else - over and over
and over.?

Comment to Virusmyth

- Dr. Randy Cima, PhD, Psychologist, Riverside, California

There is not a single scientific publication that demonstrates that HIV
is the cause of the AIDS. The verified facts confirm that, among other
causes, the abuse of recreational and pharmaceutical drugs, like AZT and
their similars, causes the AIDS?the investigators do not know which is
the cause of the AIDS, since they have not even isolated the virus??

?The test of the HIV, to know if a person is positive or negative is a
total fraud and a lie.?

?The AIDS never has been an apocalyptic disease, neither venereal, nor
contagious. You reduce them, protect against the venereal diseases, but
not against the main cause of the AIDS: the drugs?The AZT?kills the
growing, multiplying cells. A fetus and a baby are a conglomerate of
cells that grow and they are multiplying permanently. To give AZT to a
future mother and to her baby is a crime.? (translated from Spanish)

Foreword to ?VIH/SIDA, Una Gran Mentira? (HIV/AIDS, a Big Lie)

- Dr. Angel Gracia, PhD, Nutritionist, Author, Miami, Florida;
Vice-president, USAS, Union por Soluciones Alternativas para el SIDA
(Organization for Alternative Solutions for AIDS)

??1-IN-5 SOUTH AFRICANS ARE HIV-POSITIVE!? ?20% OF ALL SOUTH AFRICANS
WILL DIE OF AIDS!?

?Figures for?HIV and AIDS in South Africa and Africa are grasped at and
freely quoted ad nauseum by those who would have us believe that
sub-Saharan Africa is being ravaged?by the biggest threat to ever face
the continent. Presented as ?facts,? these figures seldom, if ever, come
under serious scrutiny in the media and in the medical profession. Yet,
even a slight scratch at the surface exposes a massive deception?The
purpose of this article is to expose the reader to some of the critical
questions that have to be asked of these misleading, if not deceitful,
figures??

?Have you ever wondered how it is that this HI-virus is able to be as
discerning and selective as it is? In North America and Europe, it is
able to discern and infect homosexuals?intravenous drug users, organ
recipients, and recipients of blood products. In Africa, it selects
people involved in heterosexual relationships for transmission, and the