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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / June 2005Condoms on the corner in Johannesburg
Every so often I drive past someone "selling" government issue condoms and HIV information pamphlets at a traffic light. The two places where I am accosted most often by these people is at the Empire Street off ramp from the M1 North and at the Jan Smuts / St Andrews Road intersection. This irritates me for a variety of reasons, including PMS, but mostly based on the fact that those condoms have been purchased with taxpayers money for the purpose of being distributed to people who need the condoms to stay HIV negative. Those pamphlets have been purchased with the purpose of educating people who need the information in that type of format. Thus, to provide people with the pamphlets and condoms for them to sell to enrich themselves is fraud. And it is endangering the lives of the people in the rural areas and townships of whatever area the health department providing the condoms should be servicing. In the past I have been unable to access pamphlets for an AIDS education project because the Department has been out of stock, although there has always been an adequate supply of male condoms (female condoms are another story). Well, if the stock is being sold to random motorists who may or may not simply throw them away then this is an issue which concerns me. By and large motorists are not the target market for government distribution condoms. These should be distributed at clinics, schools (yes, schools) and spaza shops in the community. If, and this is a big if, someone is going to take condoms to far flung places that the Department of Health can't effectively serve, then that person might be entitled to ask for a small donation to cover some of the real expenses of getting them there. However, this amount is not likely to be collected in a community setting, so perhaps a large company in the area could sponsor such a programme, should it be necessary. But bear in mind that central Johannesburg is not a far flung inpenetrable (pardon the inadvertant pun) part of the province. A further concern is that of the storage of the condoms in the sun. Condoms are not meant to be left in the sun for long periods of time. I'm surprised that large quantities of condoms (and the big boxes hold six thousand condoms) are distributed to anyone without any inkling of where they are going to be distributed, and what the effective distribution rate actually is. It's no good if the Department is thinking that they are doing a great job of distributing x number of condoms if more than half of them are sitting in glove compartments perishing in the heat of the day. The ultimate intention is that these condoms get used to prevent the transmission of disease (and babies). I'm not sure that there is anything technically illegal about "selling" or asking for a donation for government issue condoms distributed on a street corner. But it does strike me that it is using the resources of the Department of Health in a most unwise manner, and certainly one which is not envisaged by the planners of HIV prevention programmes. Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who have no intention of using them taking them, children taking them to make water bombs (lots of fun) and the few hundred now well past their expiry date sitting in Mrs M's classroom cupboard. There. My personal gripe for the day. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV > know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who > have no intention of using them taking them, children taking them to > make water bombs (lots of fun) and the few hundred now well past > their expiry date sitting in Mrs M's classroom cupboard. Why would you keep them in classroom cupboard? Use them Moira... F > > Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV > > know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why would you keep them in classroom cupboard? Use them Moira... > F Pity your parents didn't. Eh Frank? Norman >> > Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV >> > know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Norman I see you parens did. That's why you are "undone"...Eh Normiky F >>> > Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV >>> > know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I see you parens did. That's why you are "undone"...Eh Normiky > F Norman got one over on you Frank and your response was Lame - deal with it! >>>> > Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV >>>> > know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Norman got one over on you Frank and your response was Lame - deal with > it! Skkokkkkie, you are natural looser. Every time you type something here, you made a sh.t. You brain must be soft serve and smelly. F >>>>> > Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV >>>>> > know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > you made a sh.t. You brain must be soft serve and smelly. > F Wow we really are plumbing the intellectual depths: You post a lame response to Norman and when challenged you spew forth something even worse. Mne nasrat', chto ty dumaesh' Zhri govno i zdohni! Cuchka derganaya >> Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV >> know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why would you keep them in classroom cupboard? Use them Moira... > F She's not physically capable of using them as originally intended, so what should she do with them ? >>> Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV >>> know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > She's not physically capable of using them as originally intended, so what > should she do with them ? Insert it on a cucumber ...as the teach in the schools >>>> Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV >>>> know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>> > Insert it on a cucumber ...as the teach in the schools Kakaya zanuda Frank krisha poehala ...as the teach in the schools Get real Frank. You have no idea what happens in schools. You make it obvious that your only connection with a school has been when you're perving at little kids as they play in the school yard. Now take both hands out of your Y-fronts, you know you can't find it. Norman > ....as the teach in the schools > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Norman Grow up Norman. >> ....as the teach in the schools >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Grow up Norman. Jordan has managed to put three words onto the screen without using the cut and paste buttons and he has chosen to dedicate this monumental and unprecedented accomplishment to the defence of Frank, the ugliest coconut in the shie. Isn't that sweet. I bet Norman is really intimidated. >>>....as the teach in the schools >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I bet Norman is really intimidated. Grow up Skokkie >>>>....as the teach in the schools >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Grow up Skokkie Get a life Jordan >> Grow up Skokkie > >Get a life Jordan You're supposed to say "Looser".  SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>Grow up Skokkie >> >>Get a life Jordan > > You're supposed to say "Looser". I hadn't realised that there was a liturgy - but then I suppose that the catechism is simply an early FAQ. -- A person is not old until regrets take the place of hopes and plans. - Scott Nearing * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > "Frank" <buri@knology.net> wrote in message > >> Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV > >> know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who > >> have no intention of using them taking them, children taking them to > >> make water bombs (lots of fun) and the few hundred now well past > >> their expiry date sitting in Mrs M's classroom cupboard. > > Why would you keep them in classroom cupboard? Use them Moira... > She's not physically capable of using them as originally intended, so what > should she do with them ? Ice packs. They make lovely ice packs for first aid. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > > Ice packs. They make lovely ice packs for first aid. I'm glad you mention the first aid bit - I was thinking that the ice would make your G&T taste funny. -- A young lady who faints, must be recovered; questions must be answered, and surprises be explained. Such events are very interesting, but the suspense of them cannot last long. A few minutes made Emma acquainted with the whole. - Emma, Jane Austen * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org > Realistically, those of us who have ever worked in the field of HIV > know that the wastage is high enough anyway, what with people who [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > There. My personal gripe for the day. I do not think that condoms are the answer to controlling the spread of HIV/AIDS. It was not too long ago that there existed a sexual morality, amongst the people now most affected by HIV/AIDS, which, if still current, would be the most effective limiting factor in the spread of the virus. Increasing urbanisation and the loss of close contact with traditional values that were, quite severely, upheld in the rural areas, is the real basic cause of what has happened. I know that using condoms is supposed to inhibit the transfer of infection, but what the promotion of the use of condoms does do is to stimulate sexual irresponsibility. That is the essential factor. Mark Richardson snip... >I know that using condoms is supposed to inhibit the transfer of infection, >but what the promotion of the use of condoms does do is to stimulate sexual >irresponsibility. That is the essential factor. No, it is the essential supposition for which there is NO evidence whatsoever. People have sex of all kinds. Recent data from a group of students who took a "chastity" oath found similar rates of STDs among those who had not. The reality therefore suggests that condoms do not promote sexual irresponsibility (whatever that is) but rather PROMOTE responsible sexual behavior. Condoms mean caring about one's partner and one's self. They prevent the spread of a variety of infections, most importantly HIV. George M. Carter > snip... > >I know that using condoms is supposed to inhibit the transfer of infection, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > students who took a "chastity" oath found similar rates of STDs among > those who had not. On Tuesday I played golf with a friend with whom I had not played for some time and after the game we heard a report of an attack on visitors to Port St Johns, which left one elderly lady dead, one man seriously wounded and a couple of others wounded. We reminisced about the times past in Transkei, when you did not even to bother to lock your doors when you went on leave and when decent behaviour, right across the board was the norm because there was an essential discipline in the lives of the rural people - not imposed by evil colonialists, but simply an adherence to traditional custom. One of those customs was responsible sexual behaviour and the only STDs, and these were not excessive, were brought back from the mines hostels by the contract workers and the other recipient would be the future wife. This discipline is what has changed dramatically and crime and STDs are beyond what could have conceivably been imagined 40 years ago. What is needed is a return to responsible and decent behaviour, right across the same board. > The reality therefore suggests that condoms do not promote sexual > irresponsibility (whatever that is) but rather PROMOTE responsible > sexual behavior. Condoms mean caring about one's partner and one's > self. They prevent the spread of a variety of infections, most > importantly HIV. What is current is the concept that all kinds of sex, but particularly extra marital sex, is quite acceptable. This is not what I would understand as a foundation of a decent and responsible lifestyle and not just in terms of sex. People have to learn to behave properly, otherwise society goes into decline. Condoms may inhibit the transmission of some infections - not all of them - but in most places they are simply not available, no matter what our current leadership says. Mark Richardson snip... >On Tuesday I played golf with a friend with whom I had not played for some >time and after the game we heard a report of an attack on visitors to Port >St Johns, which left one elderly lady dead, one man seriously wounded and a >couple of others wounded. We reminisced about the times past in Transkei ....oh those halcyon days of yore when the niggaz was locked up and kept at bay.... >...What is needed is a >return to responsible and decent behaviour, right across the same board. Ah, yes, castrate the niggaz. You really are so full of sh.t, Mark. > snip... > >On Tuesday I played golf with a friend with whom I had not played for some [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > You really are so full of sh.t, Mark. It was not a culture imposed by whites. It was a traditional culture and made for a better lifestyle than is currently being experienced by so many of our population - especially in regard to HIV and AIDS. Had castration been the norm - you must be a very clumsy ingcibi - the population would have been rather small would it not? Mark Richardson snip... >It was not a culture imposed by whites. It was a traditional culture and >made for a better lifestyle than is currently being experienced by so many >of our population - especially in regard to HIV and AIDS. Had castration >been the norm - you must be a very clumsy ingcibi - the population would >have been rather small would it not? Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. You now take on a new form of "kinder, gentler" racism, but still couch it in all the pretty phrases of "better lifestyle" and such vague, meaningless rhetoric. You claim that there was a different "culture" or lifestyle that had less promiscuity. That's an assumption without evidence on your part but based rather on nostalgic fantasies. A lot of what happened to CHANGE cultural lifestyles over the past centuries (the good, the bad and the ugly and beautiful of them) was colonialism, the slave trade and more recently, crap like horrible Structural Adjustment Programs that shifted employment patterns and created deeper poverty. HIV doesn't care WHAT color you are. Sexuality is a NORM in ALL societies (including same gender sexual activity). How the normal sexual activities play out in terms of frequency, issues of polygamy (which I have no trouble with) or other issues (such as sleeping with the brother's wife) are as much influenced by the sometimes sublime but often pernicious influence of import religions like Christianity and Islam. Promiscuity as such has never been measured as far as I can tell. How can we know how much sex people had? And lord knows, it may be that there's just greater openness about the fact of it. The BIGGER problem I see in terms of managing prevention is the miserable state of women's rights and autonomy--but there indeed is my cultural bias and part of the change in cultures globally that must take place. Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. The fact is, nearly every culture on the planet has been changed, modulated, shifted by the fact of globalization. Waxing nostalgic for some bygone era is ridiculous and particularly impossible for you to do unless you're about 700 years old? We must deal with the here and now. And the influence from the local level (e.g., traditional healers) to the global (e.g., the impact of horrific trade deals) in addressing HIV/AIDS. That means treatment and prevention go hand in hand. That means DISCUSSING sexuality. That means harm reduction which includes condoms as a means for slowing the spread--but also must mean access to medications for opportunistic infections and antiretroviral therapy, let alone food and clean water. I do agree with you that access to condoms is a limiting factor. As part of that, partner reduction is a fine idea. Abstinence and faithfulness and fidelity are EXCELLENT concepts to offer. But you canNOT ever FORCE people to adopt those or consistently embrace them (usually, the result is merely to act as a breeding ground of hypocrisy). Public policy should be about empowering choices. George M. Carter > Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. I can't agree there, they lack the strength of men, the means of logical thought process, reaction speed is slower. They can't fix the car, do electrical or plumbing work around the house, their capacity for beer is non excistant and they know nothing about sport. I've never seen a woman down a coal mine or working in the docks unloading ships. They are however much more attractive than men, and who would want to wake up in the morning next to a man. ;p >> Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and who would want to wake up in the morning next to > a man. ;p Moira would - when she finds one. At this stage she is just stuck with faggot. F "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message > > Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. > I can't agree there, they lack the strength of men, the > means of logical thought process, reaction speed is > slower. They can't fix the car, do electrical or plumbing > work around the house, their capacity for beer is non > excistant and they know nothing about sport. I know men who lack physical strength, women who reason well (and men who don't), and reaction speeds may or may not be genetic for all I know. I have met women who can fix cars. I've also met a female electrician. I know several women who seem to drink a lot of beer and some who know a lot about sport. But by and large women are different from men. This doesn't, however, make them superior or inferior. > I've never seen a woman down a coal mine or working > in the docks unloading ships. > They are however much more attractive than men, > and who would want to wake up in the morning next to > a man. ;p As Frank points out, I don't find women more attractive than men, and nor does my flat mate. :-) -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message >> "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message > As Frank points out, I don't find women more attractive than men, > and nor does my flat mate. :-) Slow down Moria you have just agreed with Frank, go and have a stiff drink and lay down for a while, you'll feel better for it.;>) > -- > Moira, the Faerie Godmother > I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one > I have now. "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > "Moira de Swardt" <moira.deswardt@wol.co.za> wrote in message > > As Frank points out, I don't find women more attractive than men, > > and nor does my flat mate. :-) > Slow down Moria you have just agreed with Frank, go and have > a stiff drink and lay down for a while, you'll feel better for it.;>) Spent the evening with a critic whose wife was unavailable to join him tonight. He's tea-total - I got no pre-show drinks. I only got one drink at the after-party because I had to drive. The penalties of being single. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > one drink at the after-party because I had to drive. The penalties > of being single. Mmm. I wonder. How is it that you are sure that the other half would drive? -- "Me!--not at all," replied Mr. Knightley, rather displeased; "I do not want to think ill of him. I should be as ready to acknowledge his merits as any other man; but I hear of none, except what are merely personal; that he is well-grown and good-looking, with smooth, plausible manners." -- Emma, Jane Austen * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org "Peter H.M. Brooks" <peter@new.co.za> wrote in message > Mmm. I wonder. How is it that you are sure that the other half would drive? Hmm. One drinks, the other drives. One of my regular escorts always drives (his car), leaving me free to drink. Men usually like to take their own cars to functions, meaning that they drive. Mark and I agree ahead of time as to who's drinking and who's driving. The driver has to stop at two drinks plus no more one every two hours after the first two hours. Thus a four or five hour function may have three units of alcohol, while a six hour function may have four units. For example, I drove tonight. I had a single G&T at 17h00, another single G&T at 19h30 and one glass of wine at 20h30. At midnight I had half a Kahlua. When I'm not driving the gins are double (but it is likely there would only have been one), and there would probably have been two glasses of wine. The half Kahlua would have remained a half. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > Spent the evening with a critic whose wife was unavailable to join > him tonight. He's tea-total - I got no pre-show drinks. I only got > one drink at the after-party because I had to drive. The penalties > of being single. I suppose then a f.ck was out of the question? >> Spent the evening with a critic whose wife was unavailable to join >> him tonight. He's tea-total - I got no pre-show drinks. I only got >> one drink at the after-party because I had to drive. The penalties >> of being single. > > I suppose then a f.ck was out of the question? Bwwwaaahhhhh splutter choke that was good.;)) > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message >> "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message > I know several women who seem to drink a lot of > beer and some who know a lot about sport. Are they rich, have big boobs and eligible, what about some phone numbers ?? "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > "Moira de Swardt" <moira.deswardt@wol.co.za> wrote in message > > I know several women who seem to drink a lot of > > beer and some who know a lot about sport. > Are they rich, have big boobs and eligible, what about > some phone numbers ?? Some are rich, have big boobs and are not married. I don't ask for their phone numbers. It makes their girlfriends jealous. :-) -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message >> "Moira de Swardt" <moira.deswardt@wol.co.za> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Some are rich, have big boobs and are not married. I don't ask for > their phone numbers. It makes their girlfriends jealous. :-) Sometimes you say the most horrible things. > -- > Moira, the Faerie Godmother > I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one > I have now. "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > Sometimes you say the most horrible things. I try. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message >> "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message > I know men who lack physical strength, women who reason well (and > men who don't), and reaction speeds may or may not be genetic for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > are different from men. This doesn't, however, make them superior > or inferior. I hope you never meet my GF she's only just accepting how inferior women actually are, mind you it has taken a lot of beatings. "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > "Moira de Swardt" <moira.deswardt@wol.co.za> wrote in message > > This doesn't, however, make them superior > > or inferior. > I hope you never meet my GF she's only just accepting how inferior > women actually are, mind you it has taken a lot of beatings. Mark wants to know how to administer the beatings so they don't leave evidence. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message >> "Moira de Swardt" <moira.deswardt@wol.co.za> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Mark wants to know how to administer the beatings so they don't > leave evidence. A wet sock filled with sand applied with generous force to the kidney area, much more effective if the victim is tied up with their hands stretched well above their heads. This of course also precludes any retaliation. > -- > Moira, the Faerie Godmother > I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one > I have now. > A wet sock filled with sand applied with generous force to the kidney > area, much more effective if the victim is tied up with their hands > stretched well above their heads. This of course also precludes any > retaliation. wow...done this before..LOL snip... >I hope you never meet my GF she's only just accepting how inferior >women actually are, mind you it has taken a lot of beatings. My apologies for responding seriously. Course then again, I'd rather wake up next to a guy. But obviously not most of the guys on this ng. George M. Carter > "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > are different from men. This doesn't, however, make them superior > or inferior. No, indeed. Differance is part of the delight in life. > > > As Frank points out, I don't find women more attractive than men, > and nor does my flat mate. :-) I'm not sure about that. The most recent evidence on the aetiology of homosexuality suggests that homosexual men have a gene that both makes men attractive and makes them more sexual. This gene, when found in women, makes them more likely to have lots of children, which explains why it has survived. If there were a gene that only encouraged homosexuality (with no other side-effects) it would be likely to die out in a few generations for obvious reasons. A gene that makes the carrier like men more doesn't have this problem. -- Whatever forces a certain number of students to any college or university, independent of the merit or reputation of the teachers, tends more or less to diminish the necessity of that merit or reputation.-- AN INQUIRY INTO THE NATURE AND CAUSES OF THE WEALTH OF NATIONS. by Adam Smith * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org > I'm not sure about that. The most recent evidence on the aetiology of > homosexuality suggests that homosexual men have a gene that both makes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in a few generations for obvious reasons. A gene that makes the carrier > like men more doesn't have this problem. And your interest in this matter ... aww never mind. > and who would want to wake up in the morning next to > a man. ;p Elton John, Moira's Mark & JohnM to name but three famous people. Norman >> and who would want to wake up in the morning next to >> a man. ;p > > Elton John, Moira's Mark & JohnM to name but three famous people. Yuuuucckk but maybe their partners don't drink with the boys till the wee hours go home and want an intelligent conversation, then wake up looking and feeling like a bear with a bad hair day. But then I never open my eyes until the missus has spent her mandatory half hour in the bathroom applying her face because the pre plastering experience can be quite horrifying as well. > Norman "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > Yuuuucckk but maybe their partners don't drink with the boys till the > wee hours go home and want an intelligent conversation, then wake > up looking and feeling like a bear with a bad hair day. But then I never > open my eyes until the missus has spent her mandatory half hour in > the bathroom applying her face because the pre plastering experience > can be quite horrifying as well. Mark looks like an alien when he wakes up. He has no idea what I look like when I wake up as I'm nearly always awake and dressed hours before he is. :-) -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. >>Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and who would want to wake up in the morning next to > a man. ;p Now that was the wrong question to ask Carter. >> They are however much more attractive than men, >> and who would want to wake up in the morning next to >> a man. ;p > > Now that was the wrong question to ask Carter. Yes I have just read another post which makes that plain, so I was busy figuring out whether George could be a female name, I suppose not. "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > Yes I have just read another post which makes that plain, > so I was busy figuring out whether George could be a female > name, I suppose not. Quite frequently the shortened form of a female version of of the name, Georgina or Georgia. My niece is Georgia, named after my uncle, George, and usually shortened to George or Georgie. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. >>>They are however much more attractive than men, >>>and who would want to wake up in the morning next to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > so I was busy figuring out whether George could be a female > name, I suppose not. The author George Elliot turned out to be a female. In this case I don't think we will find an author, a queen maybe? snip... >>> They are however much more attractive than men, >>> and who would want to wake up in the morning next to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >so I was busy figuring out whether George could be a female >name, I suppose not. Nope. I'm Queer as a $3 bill. Does that make you nervous? George M. Carter > snip... >>>> They are however much more attractive than men, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Does that make you nervous? Now why on earth would that make me nervous, I've met far more intimidating people than you and they have never made me nervous. Actually quite the contrary, when I was in my late 30's I met my first queer. Well I'd probably met many more before hand but being naive I would have just considered them effeminate or a little different. My ex educated me as to queers, gays homo's call them what you will, her best friend David (he was in movies at the time, like must gays) and myself used to paint Hilbrow red in my BM sports and all his wannabe film star girlies. Why do gay men attract such stunning women?? what a waste. He is the most reliable, and helpful chap I've ever met I stay in his flat in Hermanus he cooks me the most fantastic meals and when I'm with him he ain't gay he's my friend. > George M. Carter >snip,,,He is the most reliable, and helpful chap I've ever met I stay >in his flat in Hermanus he cooks me the most fantastic meals and >when I'm with him he ain't gay he's my friend. LOL. How charmingly open-minded of you! But he's probably still gay while he's with you and you're probably still straight while you're with him. George M. Carter >>snip,,,He is the most reliable, and helpful chap I've ever met I stay >>in his flat in Hermanus he cooks me the most fantastic meals and >>when I'm with him he ain't gay he's my friend. > > LOL. How charmingly open-minded of you! Strange I have often been described as a bigot on this n.g. but I suppose I could be open minded on some issues whilst remaining bigoted on others. > But he's probably still gay while he's with you and you're probably > still straight while you're with him. Quite, but it never seems to interfere with our friendship in anyway, although I think we have become more tolerant of the differences in our nature. He certainly communicates with females in a manner that would cause me severe embarrassment. > George M. Carter >>>snip,,,He is the most reliable, and helpful chap I've ever met I stay >>>in his flat in Hermanus he cooks me the most fantastic meals and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I suppose I could be open minded on some issues whilst remaining >bigoted on others. Most definitely. Keeping an open heart means being able to let go of silly notions that sometimes arise in our minds. >> But he's probably still gay while he's with you and you're probably >> still straight while you're with him. >Quite, but it never seems to interfere with our friendship in anyway, >although I think we have become more tolerant of the differences >in our nature. He certainly communicates with females in a manner >that would cause me severe embarrassment. LOL. Well, put it this way. Imagine MOST couples you have EVER met or heard of. Imagine them having sex. In many cases, the very notion may put a cold chill down the back or cause the guts to curdle. But clearly THEY enjoy it. And love each other's company. And when they happen to be friends, it doesn't matter in the slightest except that you hope for them happiness? George M. Carter >>>>snip,,,He is the most reliable, and helpful chap I've ever met I stay >>>>in his flat in Hermanus he cooks me the most fantastic meals and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Keeping an open heart means being able to let go of silly notions that > sometimes arise in our minds. But we never consider notions of our minds silly. >>> But he's probably still gay while he's with you and you're probably >>> still straight while you're with him. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > LOL. Well, put it this way. Imagine MOST couples you have EVER met or > heard of. Imagine them having sex. Awww that's disgusting my friends don't have sex they're normal human beings. >In many cases, the very notion may > put a cold chill down the back or cause the guts to curdle. But > clearly THEY enjoy it. And love each other's company. I'm a man, we are not allowed to love anyone except our mothers. > And when they happen to be friends, it doesn't matter in the slightest > except that you hope for them happiness? George you're totally wrong here, I have some really valued friendships I would never spoil with love. > George M. Carter >snip... >> Keeping an open heart means being able to let go of silly notions that >> sometimes arise in our minds. > >But we never consider notions of our minds silly. Maybe we should more often? >>>> But he's probably still gay while he's with you and you're probably >>>> still straight while you're with him. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Awww that's disgusting my friends don't have sex they're normal human >beings. Well, you're a funny bigot, i'll give ya that! lol.... >>In many cases, the very notion may >> put a cold chill down the back or cause the guts to curdle. But >> clearly THEY enjoy it. And love each other's company. > >I'm a man, we are not allowed to love anyone except our mothers. I didn't realize you were Jewish! >> And when they happen to be friends, it doesn't matter in the slightest >> except that you hope for them happiness? > >George you're totally wrong here, I have some really valued friendships >I would never spoil with love. Ha! Funny and clever bigot!! I think I could get to like you. You cute?? George M. Carter > I think I could get to like you. You cute?? Even my friends don't like me. of course I'm cute if you think scraggy stray dogs are cute. > George M. Carter >> I think I could get to like you. You cute?? >Even my friends don't like me. of course I'm cute if you >think scraggy stray dogs are cute. Woof. >>> I think I could get to like you. You cute?? >>Even my friends don't like me. of course I'm cute if you >>think scraggy stray dogs are cute. > > Woof. Now that's the kinda talk that gets us dogs going. "GMCarter" <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message > On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:58:29 +0200, "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> > >snip,,,He is the most reliable, and helpful chap I've ever met I stay > >in his flat in Hermanus he cooks me the most fantastic meals and > >when I'm with him he ain't gay he's my friend. > LOL. How charmingly open-minded of you! > But he's probably still gay while he's with you and you're probably > still straight while you're with him. I think Richard merely means that he doesn't consider his friend's sexuality when they're together. Up until 1994 gay people in South Africa were rather badly treated by society in general, much like the situation you face in the USA presently. The attitudes of the general public didn't quite keep up with our constitution. People here are making quantum leaps in their/our dealings with people of other races, other cultures, other sexualities, etc. When people wander over to the homosexuality newsgroups and make comments about how some of their best friends are gay, but they must/mustn't ... etc. then we are at liberty to poke them with sticks, but on general newsgroups we should be a little more charitable, especially where such charity is deserved. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. .... >> But he's probably still gay while he's with you and you're >probably >> still straight while you're with him. > >I think Richard merely means that he doesn't consider his friend's >sexuality when they're together. I know. I gotta pull his leg a little. No, not the third one!! >Up until 1994 gay people in South Africa were rather badly treated >by society in general, much like the situation you face in the USA >presently. The attitudes of the general public didn't quite keep up >with our constitution. People here are making quantum leaps in >their/our dealings with people of other races, other cultures, other >sexualities, etc. Geez--Moira! Open up a refugee camp. I'll move in a heartbeat! >When people wander over to the homosexuality newsgroups and make >comments about how some of their best friends are gay, but they >must/mustn't ... etc. then we are at liberty to poke them with >sticks, but on general newsgroups we should be a little more >charitable, especially where such charity is deserved. Charity be damned! I'm an American and we simply take what we want and spit on the corpses!! Rummy "sportsfan" <bignose@telkomsa.net> wrote in message > Why do gay men attract such stunning women?? Gay men don't talk to our breasts. -- Moira, the Faerie Godmother I hope my standard of living doesn't go up. I can't afford the one I have now. >> Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. > >I can't agree there, they lack the strength of men, the >means of logical thought process, reaction speed is >slower. Quelle load to merde, mon cher. What men? Perhaps some women do not have the same strength as some men but a lot of women are a hell of a lot stronger than a lot of men. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually. Of course there are some physiological differences. But the logical thought process stuff is utter crap. Love to see citations to support that notion based on something other than 19th century white male sophists. George M. Carter >>> Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that notion based on something other than 19th century white male > sophists. f.ck George how old do you think I am, 20th century white male pleeese. And what women do you hang around with Amazons ? stop trying to be PC and admit women are inferior, to most normal men that is. > George M. Carter >>>>Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > stop trying to be PC and admit women are inferior, to most > normal men that is. I know that you're winding the fuckwit up, but it is still silly to say that. Neither men, nor women are 'inferior', they are different. It is true that women generally aren't so good at reading maps, playing chess or mathematics, this is because their brains are different. Men, by the same token generally aren't so good at communication, languages or keeping domestic evironments livable. That's one reason why marriage can work so well, you can take the strengths of both sexes and unite them in a partnership that works for both parties. -- A person is not old until regrets take the place of hopes and plans. - Scott Nearing * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org > I know that you're winding the fuckwit up, but it is still silly to say > that. Neither men, nor women are 'inferior', they are different. It is > true that women generally aren't so good at reading maps, playing chess or > mathematics, this is because their brains are different. Men, by the same > token generally aren't so good at communication, languages or keeping > domestic evironments livable. Yes you are quite correct, my ex was the best map reader I've ever known when she said "turn left" right was the definite course. She never failed in 14 years. However when I taught her underwater navigation she was very good, the only partner I've ever dived with and was unable to loose. > That's one reason why marriage can work so well, you can take the > strengths of both sexes and unite them in a partnership that works for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Scott Nearing > * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org >>I know that you're winding the fuckwit up, but it is still silly to say >>that. Neither men, nor women are 'inferior', they are different. It is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > her underwater navigation she was very good, the only partner > I've ever dived with and was unable to loose. One of the best map readers that I've known was also a woman - she'd worked really hard to master a skill that to most men is simply obvious, as a result she was excellent. -- Most of us are staring at a piece of furniture for half the time we are not sleeping or working - "Get a Life!" by David Rurke and Jean Lotus, White Dot * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org Love to see citations to support > that notion based on something other than 19th century white male > sophists. No you wouldn't. You wouldn't believe any evidence that conflicted with your idee fixe, that's obvious. -- When people ask me what I've got against pictures, I can only reply, 'What have you got against the well'- Quinten Crisp, Resident Alien * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org > Love to see citations to support >> that notion based on something other than 19th century white male >> sophists. >> >No you wouldn't. You wouldn't believe any evidence that conflicted with >your idee fixe, that's obvious. Don't speak for me. I am happy to have my mind changed with a more cogent argument, especially one bolstered by good evidence. So feel free to share it. George M. Carter >> Love to see citations to support >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cogent argument, especially one bolstered by good evidence. So feel > free to share it. When was the last time you changed your mind? -- When we have got to the end of this chapter (but not before) we must all turn back to the two blank chapters, on the account of which my honour has lain bleeding this half hour--I stop it, by pulling off one of my yellow slippers and throwing it with all my violence to the opposite side of my room, with a declaration at the heel of it-- - Tristam Shandy Chapter 4.LXXXIV.Laurence Sterne * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org snip.... >> Don't speak for me. I am happy to have my mind changed with a more >> cogent argument, especially one bolstered by good evidence. So feel >> free to share it. >> >When was the last time you changed your mind? On trivial matters or ones of some significance? How about you? George M. Carter > snip.... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > On trivial matters or ones of some significance? Either, or, better, both. -- When we have got to the end of this chapter (but not before) we must all turn back to the two blank chapters, on the account of which my honour has lain bleeding this half hour--I stop it, by pulling off one of my yellow slippers and throwing it with all my violence to the opposite side of my room, with a declaration at the heel of it-- - Tristam Shandy Chapter 4.LXXXIV.Laurence Sterne * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org >> snip.... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >Either, or, better, both. What about you? >>>snip.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What about you? What about me? I've answered one of your questions which is infinitely more forthcoming than you've been. Your lack of answer to the simple question suggests that you haven't changed your mind in large or small matters for a very long time. If you were actually interested, you'd find instances where I have as a matter of record on Usenet. -- In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them. - Johann von Neumann * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org >>>>snip.... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >If you were actually interested, you'd find instances where I have as a >matter of record on Usenet. LOL. And I'm sure you could do the same, dear. Here's one--the more you go on, the more my mind is changed to believe you're an idiot! And I would be more than happy to change my mind about that and find that you are more thoughtful and reasonable. In any case, no one provided any citations or evidence beyond their opinions. Which is fine but hardly a reason for me to change my view on that topic. George M. Carter > snip... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of > course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. That is why I suggested "clumsy". > You now take on a new form of "kinder, gentler" racism, but still > couch it in all the pretty phrases of "better lifestyle" and such > vague, meaningless rhetoric. You claim that there was a different > "culture" or lifestyle that had less promiscuity. That's an assumption > without evidence on your part but based rather on nostalgic fantasies. It is not without evidence. Simply compare crime statistics in the 1960s and '70s in Transkei with the current situation. Rapes of babies and children under 5 never happened. Now it is a normal situation and most are not reported. > A lot of what happened to CHANGE cultural lifestyles over the past > centuries (the good, the bad and the ugly and beautiful of them) was > colonialism, the slave trade and more recently, crap like horrible > Structural Adjustment Programs that shifted employment patterns and > created deeper poverty. The change in cultural lifestyles in SA has very little to do with the attitudes and enforcements of the previous government. Mostly it has to do with a culture - an enforced culture - of ungovernability initiated by the current regime during "the struggle".. > HIV doesn't care WHAT color you are. Sexuality is a NORM in ALL > societies (including same gender sexual activity). How the normal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but often pernicious influence of import religions like Christianity > and Islam. The critical factor is where HIV/AIDS is most prevalent. My comments related to a culture that was in place before the ANC and partners got into the picture. It was a traditional culture which had existed for centuries. > Promiscuity as such has never been measured as far as I can tell. How > can we know how much sex people had? And lord knows, it may be that > there's just greater openness about the fact of it. In the past it woud have been assessed, quite easily, by out of wedlock pregnacies. > The BIGGER problem I see in terms of managing prevention is the > miserable state of women's rights and autonomy--but there indeed is my > cultural bias and part of the change in cultures globally that must > take place. Women need to be viewed as equals in all respects. Women's rights are not the issue in this case. Responsibility is the critical factor. > The fact is, nearly every culture on the planet has been changed, > modulated, shifted by the fact of globalization. Waxing nostalgic for > some bygone era is ridiculous and particularly impossible for you to > do unless you're about 700 years old? If a cultural change takes place that results in a significant increase in the death rate of 15-50 year old people, I think that it is reasonable to consider a return to a more rational norm. > We must deal with the here and now. And the influence from the local > level (e.g., traditional healers) to the global (e.g., the impact of > horrific trade deals) in addressing HIV/AIDS. I think that you would need to be more exxplicit. Traditional healers have no influence on the spread of AIDS and raping babies does not seem to be a cure. What "horrific trade deals" have to do with anything even remotely relevant is not evident. Poverty does not create AIDS, irresponsibility is the cause. > That means treatment and prevention go hand in hand. That means > DISCUSSING sexuality. That means harm reduction which includes condoms > as a means for slowing the spread--but also must mean access to > medications for opportunistic infections and antiretroviral therapy, > let alone food and clean water. I do agree with you that access to > condoms is a limiting factor. Try putting access to medications and anti-retroviral therapy into the rural areas of this country. It simply does not work. Clinics and hospitals are not easily accessible and, in my part of SA, they do not even have the most basic medications. They are collapsing faster than one could have imagined. However, even if they had the competence to supply therapeutic medications they would not be able to halt the spread of infection. That depends on the people. > As part of that, partner reduction is a fine idea. Abstinence and > faithfulness and fidelity are EXCELLENT concepts to offer. But you > canNOT ever FORCE people to adopt those or consistently embrace them > (usually, the result is merely to act as a breeding ground of > hypocrisy). Public policy should be about empowering choices. Force is not the issue. It was not an issue in the past. What is needed is a return to the previous cultural values. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen in the near future. Mark Richardson > It is not without evidence. Simply compare crime statistics in the 1960s and > '70s in Transkei with the current situation. Rapes of babies and children > under 5 never happened. Now it is a normal situation and most are not > reported. Almost. We do need to remember that discussing many matters in public were taboo and subsequently perpetrators would have gone unprosecuted and crimes unreported. Like the sexual abuse from predator Catholic priests it went unreported at the time but after time and under different circumstances it started to come out. > Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of > course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. And you know all about this I suppose? > You now take on a new form of "kinder, gentler" racism, but still > couch it in all the pretty phrases of "better lifestyle" and such > vague, meaningless rhetoric. You claim that there was a different > "culture" or lifestyle that had less promiscuity. That's an assumption > without evidence on your part but based rather on nostalgic fantasies. Carter you should really stick to areas that you know something about. There was a good reason for a girl to remain a virgin until marriage. First if she obviously was not she would would be unmarriageable and end up as the local screw. Secondly her parents would have to refund part of the lobola should it be established that she was not in fact a virgin at marriage. However, with the reinstatement of virginity testing sadly there is a reported corresponding increase in anal sexual activity as boys explore other ways to get their rocks off. >> Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of >> course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. > >And you know all about this I suppose? Of course not! Do you? I've read some ingcibi's are good; others are inexpert hacks, pardon the expression, and have caused injury and death. Like any profession. I've read that male circumcision may reduce the spread of STDs. I am very mixed on that as a means of disease control, especially since it is done at a later age in many African cultures (e.g., around age 18 or so, the impact on reducing HIV risk flattens out...so to speak...) >> You now take on a new form of "kinder, gentler" racism, but still >> couch it in all the pretty phrases of "better lifestyle" and such [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Carter you should really stick to areas that you know something about. I'm always happy to learn more! >There was a good reason for a girl to remain a virgin until marriage. Marriage--ah...which rites? What culture are you talking about? >First if she obviously was not she would would be unmarriageable and end >up as the local screw. Secondly her parents would have to refund part of >the lobola should it be established that she was not in fact a virgin at >marriage. However, with the reinstatement of virginity testing sadly >there is a reported corresponding increase in anal sexual activity as >boys explore other ways to get their rocks off. In short, sexual activity seems pretty normal and common in most cultures and societies. So rather than yearning for some rosy-remembered historical culture that may or may not have ever existed except in the imagination, might it not be more prudent to deal with the recognition that people like to get off with each other and offer them tools to reduce harm? I.e., sure, enjoy the anal and oral sex. Use a condom, especially during the anal sex. George M. Carter >>>Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of >>>course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. >> >>And you know all about this I suppose? > > Of course not! Do you? I don't comment on them so maybe you should do the same and refrain. > I've read some ingcibi's are good; others are inexpert hacks, pardon > the expression, and have caused injury and death. Like any profession. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is done at a later age in many African cultures (e.g., around age 18 > or so, the impact on reducing HIV risk flattens out...so to speak...) There was a discussion about that a year or so ago. A lively cross posting exchange. Came across this (small) study the other day and reminded me of the said exchange. The acceptability of male circumcision as an HIV intervention among a rural Zulu population, Kwazulu-Natal, South Africa. AIDS Care. 2005 Apr;17(3):304-13. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15832878&query_hl=3 Interestingly in a traditionally non-circumcising Zulu population 50% of men favoured circumcision for themselves and their sons while around 70% of females favoured it for their men folk. Now back to the exchange. It seems as though uncircumcised men take such stated preferences of women and findings of health risks relating to the foreskin pretty badly. More an emotional response than anything rational so not worth discussing really. >>>You now take on a new form of "kinder, gentler" racism, but still >>>couch it in all the pretty phrases of "better lifestyle" and such [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Marriage--ah...which rites? What culture are you talking about? Generally, southern and central African. >>First if she obviously was not she would would be unmarriageable and end >>up as the local screw. Secondly her parents would have to refund part of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > deal with the recognition that people like to get off with each other > and offer them tools to reduce harm? Who is yearning for anything? I will always be eternally greatfull to Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, and Germaine Greer whose feminist revolution made it nearly impossible for girls to say no to premarital sex. Thank you ladies, thank you, we had a feast. The tide turned, there was no stopping it. Can we agree that things have changed for the better or worse (depending on your own point of view) we need to explore all means (methods) to reduce the risk of infection? >>>>Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of >>>>course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I don't comment on them so maybe you should do the same and refrain. My only comment was to note that they perform circumcisions. Are you saying that is incorrect? >> I've read some ingcibi's are good; others are inexpert hacks, pardon >> the expression, and have caused injury and death. Like any profession. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >men favoured circumcision for themselves and their sons while around 70% >of females favoured it for their men folk. Thanks for sharing that. >Now back to the exchange. It seems as though uncircumcised men take such >stated preferences of women and findings of health risks relating to the >foreskin pretty badly. More an emotional response than anything rational >so not worth discussing really. The emotional aspect is important in terms of recognizing that as a public policy, circumcision for men is a debatable issue. It depends on who is doing it, how it is done, when it is done and certainly the choice of whether it should be done will be colored by emotional aspects. snip... >> Marriage--ah...which rites? What culture are you talking about? > >Generally, southern and central African. Wow. That's a pretty broad swath, both geographically and culturally. >>>First if she obviously was not she would would be unmarriageable and end >>>up as the local screw. Secondly her parents would have to refund part of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >revolution made it nearly impossible for girls to say no to premarital >sex. Thank you ladies, thank you, we had a feast. Wow. Talk about perverting an important message about equality. Wasn't about getting your rocks of, of course. It was about economic parity as much as anything else. >The tide turned, there was no stopping it. Can we agree that things have >changed for the better or worse (depending on your own point of view) we >need to explore all means (methods) to reduce the risk of infection? Yes. Especially those for which there are some clinical data. Encouraging or helping to empower people to make choices that reduce risk make sense. Front and center, I believe, should be discussions of sex and sexuality, harm reduction and condom use. George M. Carter > >>>>Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of > >>>>course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >> I've read some ingcibi's are good; others are inexpert hacks, pardon > >> the expression, and have caused injury and death. Like any profession. The death rate has risen over the past few years. There is a move to try to get the actual circumcision done in an hospital, but that is not having too much success. Circumcision is the basis of the initiation period, but it it is a pretty tough Boot Camp where going through physical hardship and lessons in proper behaviour are supposed to produce a decent result. Unfortunately since winter is the time it happens the mutilations (loss of penis) and deaths that occur can be attributed to careless cutting, but also to lack of effective sanitation and a certain physical debilitation. Mark Richardson >>>>>>Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of >>>>>>course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The death rate has risen over the past few years. Has it really or is this a product of a more open society and a more vibrant free press? It would be helpfull to be able to relate these deaths and botches to a % of the actual. Who knows it may even be saver as compared to MRSA infection in NHS hospitals in the UK. > There is a move to try to > get the actual circumcision done in an hospital, but that is not having too [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mark Richardson . > >>My only comment was to note that they perform circumcisions. Are you > >>saying that is incorrect? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > deaths and botches to a % of the actual. Who knows it may even be saver > as compared to MRSA infection in NHS hospitals in the UK. The reports on the increased rate of deaths and permanent mutilations are published each year. Each succeeding year seems to produce more deaths and recorded mutilations than the previous one. This is why there is certainly a lobby for the actual circumcision to be done in a supervised medical facility or, for the method of cricumcision to be changed from the traditional spear blade ( not a very sterile instrument) to device developed in SE Asia (Thailand or Malaysia, I am not sure which). The traditional authorities are not unanimous in rejecting these proposals, but the majority seem to. Mark Richardson >>>>>Indeed--something I think you probably would have preferred. Of >>>>>course, ingcibi's do not castrate, they circumcise. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > My only comment was to note that they perform circumcisions. Are you > saying that is incorrect? Immediately below this is what you said. I think this part of the post can now be closed. >>>I've read some ingcibi's are good; others are inexpert hacks, pardon >>>the expression, and have caused injury and death. Like any profession. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > choice of whether it should be done will be colored by emotional > aspects. Well lets wait until the RCT's results are |
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