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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / May 2005

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Re: Bloggers write about getting tested together h

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PaulKing - 26 May 2005 19:43 GMT
Yes, mutual HIV testing is a great idea.

You can both take a 'test' which is non specific, not approved as a test
for HIV but simply 'an aid to diagonisis' and reacts to almost any protein
complex.

On the the basis of this worthless 'test' you can screw up your life,
start taking deadly meds and live in fear and 'side effect' horrors.

At least you will know someone else was as stupid as you and also took the
'test.
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 26 May 2005 21:08 GMT
         Yes, mutual HIV testing is a great idea.

         You can both take a 'test' which is non specific, not
         approved as a test for HIV but simply 'an aid to
         diagonisis' and reacts to almost any protein complex.

         On the the basis of this worthless 'test' you can screw
         up your life, start taking deadly meds and live in fear
         and 'side effect' horrors.

         At least you will know someone else was as stupid as
         you and also took the 'test.

A stupid person might do as you suggest take only one test.
And there are a lot of stupid people in the world.
Many people can find one by looking in a mirror.
So after you get positive results with that first test
a really bright person might get a second test to verify it.
And then go on to get a specific pcr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCR
polymerase chain reaction TYPE of test.
However since there don't really seem to be any really bright
people in this room we're all going to go on and do the stupid thing
and start taking powerful drugs to kill or repress a disease
that we may not have. See how easy it is to play the game of calling
everybody but oneself stupid? Your move...
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:18 GMT
Two worthless tests don't add up to one good test.

Try making calculations using two faulty calculators.

The errors get WORSE not better.

Another example of insane 'AID$' logic.
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:19 GMT
Unreliable Tests

A September 2004, San Francisco Chronicle article considered the "beauty"
of testing. It told the story of 59 year-old veteran Jim Malone,  who'd
been told in 1996 that he was HIV positive. His health was diagnosed as
"very poor." He was classified as "permanently disabled and unable to work
or participate in any stressful situation whatsoever."

In 2004, his doctor sent him a note to tell him he was actually negative.
He had tested positive at one hospital, and negative at another.

Nobody asked why the second test was more accurate than the first (this
was the protocol at the Veteran's Hospital). Having been falsely diagnosed
and spending nearly a decade waiting, expecting to die, Malone said,  "I
would tell people to get not just one HIV test, but multiple tests. I
would say test, test and retest."

In the article, AIDS experts assured the public that the story was
"extraordinarily rare." But the medical literature differs significantly.

The Numbers

In 1985, at the beginning of HIV testing, it was known that "68% to 89% of
all repeatedly reactive ELISA (HIV antibody) tests [were] likely to
represent false positive results." (New England Journal of Medicine.
1985).

In 1992, the Lancet reported ("HIV Screening in Russia") that for 66 true
positives, there were 30,000 false positives. And in pregnant women,
"there were 8,000 false     positives for 6 confirmations."

In September 2000, the Archives of Family Medicine stated that the more
women we test, the greater "the proportion of false-positive and ambiguous
(indeterminate) test results."

The tests described above are standard HIV tests, the kind promoted in the
ads. Their technical name is ELISA or EIA (Enzyme-linked Immuno-sorbant
Assay). They are antibody tests. The tests contain proteins that react
with antibodies in your blood.

False Positives

In the U.S., you're tested with an ELISA first. If your blood reacts,
you'll be tested again, with another ELISA. Why is the second more
accurate than the first? That's just the protocol. If you have a reaction
on the second ELISA, you'll be confirmed with a third antibody test,
called the Western Blot. But that's here in America. In some countries,
one
ELISA is all you get.

It is precisely because HIV tests are antibody tests that they produce so
many false-positive results. All antibodies tend to cross-react. We
produce anti-bodies all the time, in response to stress, malnutrition,
illness, drug use, vaccination, foods we eat, a cut, a cold, even
pregnancy. These antibodies are known to make HIV tests come up as
positive.

The medical literature lists dozens of reasons for positive HIV test
results: "transfusions, transplantation, or pregnancy, autoimmune
disorders, malignancies, alcoholic liver disease, or for reasons that are
unclear..." (Archives of Family Medicine. Sept/Oct. 2000).

"[L]iver diseases, parenteral substance abuse, hemodialysis, or
vaccinations for hepatitis B, rabies, or influenza..." (Archives of
Internal Medicine, August 2000).

The same is true for the confirmatory test the Western Blot. Causes of
indeterminate Western Blots include: "lymphoma, multiple sclerosis,
injection drug use, liver disease, or autoimmune disorders. Also, there
appear to be healthy individuals with antibodies that cross-react...."
(ibid).

Pregnancy is consistently listed as a cause of positive test results, even
by the test manufacturers." [False positives can be caused by] prior
pregnancy, blood transfusions...and other potential nonspecific
reactions." (Vironostika HIV Test, 2003).

Inflated Africa Numbers

This is significant in Africa, because HIV estimates for African nations
are drawn almost exclusively from testing done on groups of pregnant
women.

In Zimbabwe last year, the rate of HIV infection among young women
decreased remarkably, from 32.5 to 6 percent. A drop of 81 percent
overnight. UNICEF's Swaziland representative, Dr. Alan Brody, told the
press that, "The problem is that all the sero-surveillance data came from
pregnant women, and estimates for other demographics was based on that."
(PLUS News, August, 2004).

Flawed Samples

When these pregnant young women are tested, they're often tested for other
illnesses, like syphilis, at the same time. There's no concern for
cross-reactivity or false-positives in this group, and no repeat testing.
One ELISA on one girl, and 32.5 percent of the population is suddenly HIV
positive.

The June 20, 2004 Boston Globe reported "the current estimate of 40
million people living with the AIDS virus worldwide is inflated by 25
percent to 50 percent." It said that HIV estimates for entire countries
have, for over a decade, been taken from "blood samples from pregnant
women at prenatal clinics."

But numbers about "AIDS deaths, AIDS orphans, numbers of people needing
antiretroviral treatment, and the average life expectancy" are all taken
from that one test.

I've certainly never seen this in a VH1 ad.

At present there are about six-dozen reasons given in the literature why
the tests come up positive. In fact, the medical literature states that
there is simply no way of knowing if any HIV test is truly positive or
negative:

"[F]alse-positive reactions have been observed with every single HIV-1
protein, recombinant or authentic." (Clinical Chemistry. 37; 1991). "Thus,
it may be impossible to relate an antibody response specifically to HIV-1
infection." (Medicine International. 1988).

Ambiguous Results

And even if you believe the reaction is not a false positive, "the test
does not indicate whether the person currently harbors the virus."
(Science. November, 1999).

The test manufacturers state that after the antibody reaction occurs, the
tests have to be "interpreted." There is no strict or clear
definition of HIV positive or negative. There's just the antibody
reaction. The reaction is colored by an enzyme, and read by a machine
called a spectro-photometer.

The machine grades the reactions according to their strength (but not
specificity), above and below a cut-off. If you test above the cut-off,
you're positive; if you test below it, you're negative. So what determines
the all-important cut-off? From The CDC's instructional material:
"Establishing the cutoff value to define a positive test result from a
negative one is somewhat arbitrary." (CDC, 2003)
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:21 GMT
"polymerase chain reaction"

Kary Mullis who invented this test says quite clearly it does NOT show
anything about so called 'HIV'.

He should know.
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:43 GMT
Mullis's invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) won him the Nobel
Prize in chemistry in 1993. PCR is a remarkably simply yet revolutionary
method of selectively multiplying and mass-producing specific DNA segments
in just hours.

Previously, DNA could be multiplied, but not isolated, and it is in the
isolation that the revolutionary kernel lies. Scientists can now undertake
everything from detecting hereditary cancers in foetuses, to solving
impossible murder mysteries, to retracing the very depts of evolution. The
London Observer trumpeted: "Not since James Watt walked across Glasgow
Green in 1765 and realized that the secondary steam condenser would
transform steam power, an inspiration that set loose the industrial
revolution, has a single, momentous idea been so well recorded in time and
place."

Mullis then went on to echo one of Duesberg's most controversial claims.
"Human beings are full of retroviruses," he said, "We don't know if it is
hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands.

We've only recently started to look for them. But they've never killed
anybody before. People have always survived retroviruses."
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:24 GMT
..several trips to have WB, Elisa and PCR 'tests' and then home alone to
await the results.

Total cost around $500 and you don't even get laid.

Sounds so much fun. I can't wait to try it out.

Romantic too.
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 27 May 2005 04:27 GMT
.         You contributed remarks
                         unattributed
                         unreferenced
                         without the original web link
                         without the same web link
                         without the exact web link
                         without author names
                         without publishers
                         without publication dates
                         without citations
                         not clearly attributed
                         not clearly referenced
                         without clear citations
                         improperly attributed
                         improperly referenced
                         improperly cited
                         fallaciously attributed
                         fallaciously referenced
                         fallaciously cited

         Please check your sources and relate the original
         source for people reading your contributed remarks
         to check for themselves...

         See also
         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cite

"polymerase chain reaction"
Kary Mullis who invented this test says quite clearly it does NOT
show anything about so called 'HIV'.
He should know

         Please give a reference...

Two worthless tests don't add up to one good test.
Try making calculations using two faulty calculators.
The errors get WORSE not better.
Another example of insane 'AID$' logic

         If that's the case how is it that hiv human
         immunodeficiency virus has been eliminated by and large
         from the blood supply. Half of the hemophiliacs became
         infected, many of them died and now from this point on
         there have been almost no infections. They've been
         testing the blood for this so called imaginary hiv
         thing eliminating it from the blood and low and behold
         new hiv infections among hemophiliacs have stopped. How
         do they do that!?

A date with Don - $500 for nothing.
..several trips to have WB, Elisa and PCR 'tests' and then home
alone to await the results.
Total cost around $500 and you don't even get laid.
Sounds so much fun. I can't wait to try it out

         When people get diagnosed with cancer they often get
         hundreds if not thousands of dollars of tests. Isn't
         that the point?... to get tested, determine the case
         and then treat it? Well what if you had syphilis? That
         wouldn't be for nothing. Then you could start a
         treatment. Or gonorrhea?  Or chlamydia? Then you can
         begin a treatment.

Mullis's invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) won him
the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1993. PCR is a remarkably simply
yet revolutionary method of selectively multiplying and
mass-producing specific DNA segments in just hours.

Previously, DNA could be multiplied, but not isolated, and it is
in the isolation that the revolutionary kernel lies. Scientists
can now undertake everything from detecting hereditary cancers in
foetuses, to solving impossible murder mysteries, to retracing
the very depts of evolution. The London Observer trumpeted: "Not
since James Watt walked across Glasgow Green in 1765 and realized
that the secondary steam condenser would transform steam power,
an inspiration that set loose the industrial revolution, has a
single, momentous idea been so well recorded in time and place."

Mullis then went on to echo one of Duesberg's most controversial
claims. "Human beings are full of retroviruses," he said, "We
don't know if it is hundreds or thousands or hundreds of
thousands.

We've only recently started to look for them. But they've never
killed anybody before. People have always survived retroviruses."

         Oh yes, the authoritative medical journal Spin!
         http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/cfarber.htm
         http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cfmullis.htm
         A 1994 issue! God knows nothing has changed in our
         understanding of biology since then!

He is long-standing member of the Group for the Reappraisal of
the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, the 500-member protest organization
pushing for a re-examination of the cause of AIDS.
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cfmullis.htm

         If they really exist and are examining it wouldn't they
         have something more recent than a decade ago? Have you
         a more recent reference?...
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:01 GMT
You contributed remarks
                         unattributed
                         unreferenced
                         without the original web link
                         without the same web link
                         without the exact web link
                         without author names
                         without publishers
                         without publication dates
                         without citations
                         not clearly attributed
                         not clearly referenced
                         without clear citations
                         improperly attributed
                         improperly referenced
                         improperly cited
                         fallaciously attributed
                         fallaciously referenced
                         fallaciously cited

You are a total idiot Don.
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:03 GMT
"He is long-standing member of the Group for the Reappraisal of
the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, the 500-member protest organization
pushing for a re-examination of the cause of AIDS.
"

It is now 4,000 strong with another 10,000 supporting members. Why repeat
what has already been established.

If the PCR test was nonsense 10 years ago it is not about to become valid
with the passage of time. It is not wine, you fool.
GMCarter - 27 May 2005 09:45 GMT
>"He is long-standing member of the Group for the Reappraisal of
>the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, the 500-member ...

Bullshit. You have dead people and many others listed there from the
early 90s who mostly now recognize HIV exists and causes AIDS. At
least the ones who haven't long since died. Some of AIDS.

Yet another direct, outright lie, Mark.

        George M. Carter
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:06 GMT
"When people get diagnosed with cancer they often get hundreds if not
thousands of dollars of tests.'

But only if they have some reason to think they have cancer. They don't
get tested before ever dinner engagement, do they?

At least with cancer a REAL test exists.

With 'AIDS' neither the syndrome NOR the test are real.

The ONLY real thing is the profit made from this shabby scam.
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:07 GMT
"Oh yes, the authoritative medical journal Spin!"

One of the few publications willing to go up against the drugs companies.
It is the authors not the publication that matters.
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:09 GMT
" If they really exist and are examining it wouldn't they have something
more recent than a decade ago?"

They have, you idiot. I just picked an article on the PCR topic, at
random.

This board is packed with 2005 articles I have republished.

Stupid response.
GMCarter - 27 May 2005 09:47 GMT
>This board is packed with 2005 articles I have republished.

Indeed. Packed with the same garbage repeated ad nauseam (and one
would think in violation of your TOS). Most of which have been
responded to at length and very little of which supports your
contention that HIV tests are useless.

You are an outright, bald-faced liar. And that, Mark, is the correct
spelling. Not "lier."

        George M. Carter
PaulKing - 28 May 2005 01:16 GMT
Get stuffe you pathetic little creature.....

and liar
PaulKing - 28 May 2005 01:16 GMT
Get stuffed you pathetic little creature.....

and liar
PaulKing - 28 May 2005 01:18 GMT
Some test!

Factors Known to Cause
False Positive HIV Antibody Test Results

1.Anti-carbohydrate antibodies 52,19,13
2.Naturally-occurring antibodies 5,19
3.Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune (as
prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies) 18, 26, 60, 4,
22, 42, 43, 13
4.Leprosy 2, 25
5.Tuberculosis 25
6.Mycobacterium avium 25
7.Systemic lupus erythematosus 15, 23
8.Renal (kidney) failure 48, 23, 13
9.Hemodialysis/renal failure 56, 16, 41, 10, 49
10.Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients 54
11.Flu 36
12.Flu vaccination 30, 11, 3, 20, 13, 43
13.Herpes simplex I 27
14.Herpes simplex II 11
15.Upper respiratory tract infection (cold or flu) 11
16.Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines 11
17.Pregnancy in multiparous women 58, 53, 13, 43, 36
18.Malaria 6, 12
19.High levels of circulating immune complexes 6, 33
20.Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies) 40, 33
21.False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma
reagent) test for syphilis 17, 48, 33, 10, 49
22.Rheumatoid arthritis 36
23.Hepatitis B vaccination 28, 21, 40, 43
24.Tetanus vaccination 40
25.Organ transplantation 1, 36
26.Renal transplantation 35, 9, 48, 13, 56
27.Anti-lymphocyte antibodies 56, 31
28.Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of
both sexes and people with leprosy) 31
29.Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found
in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies) 14, 62, 53
30.Autoimmune diseases 44, 29, 1O, 40, 49, 43
31.Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease,
dermatomyositis Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections 59,
48, 43, 53, 40, 13
32.Malignant neoplasms (cancers) 40
33.Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease 32, 48, 40, 10, 13, 49,
43,
53
34.Primary sclerosing cholangitis 48, 53
35.Hepatitis 54
36."Sticky" blood (in Africans) 38, 34, 40
37.Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test
kits)
62, 40, 3
38.Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions 63, 36, 13, 49, 43, 41

39.Multiple myeloma 10, 43, 53
40.HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens) 7, 46, 63, 48,
10, 13, 49, 43, 53
41.Anti-smooth muscle antibody 48
42.Anti-parietal cell antibody 48
43.Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody) 48
44.Anti-Hbc IgM 48
45.Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985
10
46.Haemophilia 10, 49
47.Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma 43, 53, 9, 48, 13
48.Primary biliary cirrhosis 43, 53, 13, 48
49.Stevens-Johnson syndrome 9, 48, 13
50.Q-fever with associated hepatitis 61
51.Heat-treated specimens 51, 57, 24, 49, 48
52.Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids) 49
53.Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from red cells)
49
54.Hyperbilirubinemia 10, 13
55.Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in
AIDS risk groups) 10, 13, 48 cross-reactions 10
57.Normal human ribonucleoproteins 48, 13
58.Other retroviruses 8, 55, 14, 48, 13
59.Anti-mitochondrial antibodies 48, 13
60.Anti-nuclear antibodies 48, 13, 53
61.Anti-microsomal antibodies 34
62.T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies 48, 13
63.Proteins on the filter paper 13
64.Epstein-Barr virus 37
65.Visceral leishmaniasis 45
66.Receptive anal sex 39, 64
Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list of
conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause positives on
HIV tests, and provides references for each condition.
Christine notes:
"Just because something is on this list doesn't mean that it will
definitely, or even probably, cause a false-positive. It depends on what
antibodies the individual carries as well as the characteristics of each
particular test kit.
For instance, some, but not all people who have had blood transfusions,
prior pregnancies or an organ transplant will make HLA antibodies. And
some, but not all test kits (both ELISA and Western blot) will be
contaminated with HLA antigens to which these antibodies can react. Only
if these two conditions coincide might you get a false-positive due to
HLA
cross-reactivity.
There are conditions that are more likely than others to cause
false-positives. And there are some conditions that we aren't aware of
yet
which may be documented in the future to cause false-positives. Some of
the factors on the list have been documented only for ELISA, while some
have been documented for both ELISA and Western blot (WB) tests.
People may be eager to argue that if a factor is only known to cause
false-positives on ELISA, this problem won't be carried over to the WB.
But remember, a WB is positive by virtue of accumulating enough
individual
positive bands to add up to the total required by whatever criteria is
used to interpret it 39. So the more exposure a person has had to foreign
antigens, proteins and infectious agents, the more various antibodies he
or she will have in their system, and the more likely it is
that there will be several cross-reacting antibodies, enough to make the
WB positive.
It is to be noted that all AIDS risk groups (and Africans as well), but
not the general US or Western European population, have this problem in
common: they have been exposed to a plethora of foreign antigens and
proteins. This is why people in the AIDS "risk groups" tend to have
positive WBs (i.e., to be considered "HIV-infected") and people in the
population don't. However, even people in low-risk populations have
false-positive Western blots for poorly understood reasons 47.
Since false-positives to every single HIV protein have been documented
36,
how do we know if the positive WB bands represent the various proteins to
HIV, or a collection of false-positive bands reacting to several
different
non-HIV antibodies?"
GMCarter - 28 May 2005 02:10 GMT
>Some test!
>
>Factors Known to Cause
>False Positive HIV Antibody Test Results

Another bullshit post full of lies and distortions frequently
responded to and regurgitated yet again.

These are lies, Mark. Demonstrably proven distortions in many cases.
Oh, I don't dispute that a cross reaction here or there can
occur--happens with all tests! Even less so with HIV. But most of this
crap is just crap.

Google the thread. I posted it here recently. Thorough dissection of
this.

But you want to believe so hard that HIV is some kind of figment.

HIV doesn't give a flying f.ck what myths you believe. And if you're
infected, you'll wind up just like David Pasquarelli, 9 chances out of
10. You'll die of AIDS just like he did, having bought your lies.

        George M. Carter
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 28 May 2005 02:15 GMT
.
| Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list
| of conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause
| positives on HIV tests, and provides references for each
| condition.

         What current tudies are there regarding her
         compilation?

         Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's.
Gary Stein - 28 May 2005 02:42 GMT
> .
> | Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>          Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's.

Christine Johnson is a journalist with a bias not a scientist. So your as
likely to get the truth from her as you are to get the truth from Paul.

Gary Stein
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 28 May 2005 02:17 GMT
Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list
of conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause
positives on HIV tests, and provides references for each
condition.

         What current studies are there regarding her
         compilation?

         Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's.
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 28 May 2005 02:21 GMT
Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list
of conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause
positives on HIV tests, and provides references for each
condition

         What current studies are there regarding her
         compilation?

         Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's.

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