Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / May 2005
Re: Bloggers write about getting tested together h
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PaulKing - 26 May 2005 19:43 GMT Yes, mutual HIV testing is a great idea.
You can both take a 'test' which is non specific, not approved as a test for HIV but simply 'an aid to diagonisis' and reacts to almost any protein complex.
On the the basis of this worthless 'test' you can screw up your life, start taking deadly meds and live in fear and 'side effect' horrors.
At least you will know someone else was as stupid as you and also took the 'test.
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 26 May 2005 21:08 GMT Yes, mutual HIV testing is a great idea.
You can both take a 'test' which is non specific, not approved as a test for HIV but simply 'an aid to diagonisis' and reacts to almost any protein complex.
On the the basis of this worthless 'test' you can screw up your life, start taking deadly meds and live in fear and 'side effect' horrors.
At least you will know someone else was as stupid as you and also took the 'test.
A stupid person might do as you suggest take only one test. And there are a lot of stupid people in the world. Many people can find one by looking in a mirror. So after you get positive results with that first test a really bright person might get a second test to verify it. And then go on to get a specific pcr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCR polymerase chain reaction TYPE of test. However since there don't really seem to be any really bright people in this room we're all going to go on and do the stupid thing and start taking powerful drugs to kill or repress a disease that we may not have. See how easy it is to play the game of calling everybody but oneself stupid? Your move...
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:18 GMT Two worthless tests don't add up to one good test.
Try making calculations using two faulty calculators.
The errors get WORSE not better.
Another example of insane 'AID$' logic.
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:19 GMT Unreliable Tests
A September 2004, San Francisco Chronicle article considered the "beauty" of testing. It told the story of 59 year-old veteran Jim Malone, who'd been told in 1996 that he was HIV positive. His health was diagnosed as "very poor." He was classified as "permanently disabled and unable to work or participate in any stressful situation whatsoever."
In 2004, his doctor sent him a note to tell him he was actually negative. He had tested positive at one hospital, and negative at another.
Nobody asked why the second test was more accurate than the first (this was the protocol at the Veteran's Hospital). Having been falsely diagnosed and spending nearly a decade waiting, expecting to die, Malone said, "I would tell people to get not just one HIV test, but multiple tests. I would say test, test and retest."
In the article, AIDS experts assured the public that the story was "extraordinarily rare." But the medical literature differs significantly.
The Numbers
In 1985, at the beginning of HIV testing, it was known that "68% to 89% of all repeatedly reactive ELISA (HIV antibody) tests [were] likely to represent false positive results." (New England Journal of Medicine. 1985).
In 1992, the Lancet reported ("HIV Screening in Russia") that for 66 true positives, there were 30,000 false positives. And in pregnant women, "there were 8,000 false positives for 6 confirmations."
In September 2000, the Archives of Family Medicine stated that the more women we test, the greater "the proportion of false-positive and ambiguous (indeterminate) test results."
The tests described above are standard HIV tests, the kind promoted in the ads. Their technical name is ELISA or EIA (Enzyme-linked Immuno-sorbant Assay). They are antibody tests. The tests contain proteins that react with antibodies in your blood.
False Positives
In the U.S., you're tested with an ELISA first. If your blood reacts, you'll be tested again, with another ELISA. Why is the second more accurate than the first? That's just the protocol. If you have a reaction on the second ELISA, you'll be confirmed with a third antibody test, called the Western Blot. But that's here in America. In some countries, one ELISA is all you get.
It is precisely because HIV tests are antibody tests that they produce so many false-positive results. All antibodies tend to cross-react. We produce anti-bodies all the time, in response to stress, malnutrition, illness, drug use, vaccination, foods we eat, a cut, a cold, even pregnancy. These antibodies are known to make HIV tests come up as positive.
The medical literature lists dozens of reasons for positive HIV test results: "transfusions, transplantation, or pregnancy, autoimmune disorders, malignancies, alcoholic liver disease, or for reasons that are unclear..." (Archives of Family Medicine. Sept/Oct. 2000).
"[L]iver diseases, parenteral substance abuse, hemodialysis, or vaccinations for hepatitis B, rabies, or influenza..." (Archives of Internal Medicine, August 2000).
The same is true for the confirmatory test the Western Blot. Causes of indeterminate Western Blots include: "lymphoma, multiple sclerosis, injection drug use, liver disease, or autoimmune disorders. Also, there appear to be healthy individuals with antibodies that cross-react...." (ibid).
Pregnancy is consistently listed as a cause of positive test results, even by the test manufacturers." [False positives can be caused by] prior pregnancy, blood transfusions...and other potential nonspecific reactions." (Vironostika HIV Test, 2003).
Inflated Africa Numbers
This is significant in Africa, because HIV estimates for African nations are drawn almost exclusively from testing done on groups of pregnant women.
In Zimbabwe last year, the rate of HIV infection among young women decreased remarkably, from 32.5 to 6 percent. A drop of 81 percent overnight. UNICEF's Swaziland representative, Dr. Alan Brody, told the press that, "The problem is that all the sero-surveillance data came from pregnant women, and estimates for other demographics was based on that." (PLUS News, August, 2004).
Flawed Samples
When these pregnant young women are tested, they're often tested for other illnesses, like syphilis, at the same time. There's no concern for cross-reactivity or false-positives in this group, and no repeat testing. One ELISA on one girl, and 32.5 percent of the population is suddenly HIV positive.
The June 20, 2004 Boston Globe reported "the current estimate of 40 million people living with the AIDS virus worldwide is inflated by 25 percent to 50 percent." It said that HIV estimates for entire countries have, for over a decade, been taken from "blood samples from pregnant women at prenatal clinics."
But numbers about "AIDS deaths, AIDS orphans, numbers of people needing antiretroviral treatment, and the average life expectancy" are all taken from that one test.
I've certainly never seen this in a VH1 ad.
At present there are about six-dozen reasons given in the literature why the tests come up positive. In fact, the medical literature states that there is simply no way of knowing if any HIV test is truly positive or negative:
"[F]alse-positive reactions have been observed with every single HIV-1 protein, recombinant or authentic." (Clinical Chemistry. 37; 1991). "Thus, it may be impossible to relate an antibody response specifically to HIV-1 infection." (Medicine International. 1988).
Ambiguous Results
And even if you believe the reaction is not a false positive, "the test does not indicate whether the person currently harbors the virus." (Science. November, 1999).
The test manufacturers state that after the antibody reaction occurs, the tests have to be "interpreted." There is no strict or clear definition of HIV positive or negative. There's just the antibody reaction. The reaction is colored by an enzyme, and read by a machine called a spectro-photometer.
The machine grades the reactions according to their strength (but not specificity), above and below a cut-off. If you test above the cut-off, you're positive; if you test below it, you're negative. So what determines the all-important cut-off? From The CDC's instructional material: "Establishing the cutoff value to define a positive test result from a negative one is somewhat arbitrary." (CDC, 2003)
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:21 GMT "polymerase chain reaction"
Kary Mullis who invented this test says quite clearly it does NOT show anything about so called 'HIV'.
He should know.
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:43 GMT Mullis's invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) won him the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1993. PCR is a remarkably simply yet revolutionary method of selectively multiplying and mass-producing specific DNA segments in just hours.
Previously, DNA could be multiplied, but not isolated, and it is in the isolation that the revolutionary kernel lies. Scientists can now undertake everything from detecting hereditary cancers in foetuses, to solving impossible murder mysteries, to retracing the very depts of evolution. The London Observer trumpeted: "Not since James Watt walked across Glasgow Green in 1765 and realized that the secondary steam condenser would transform steam power, an inspiration that set loose the industrial revolution, has a single, momentous idea been so well recorded in time and place."
Mullis then went on to echo one of Duesberg's most controversial claims. "Human beings are full of retroviruses," he said, "We don't know if it is hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands.
We've only recently started to look for them. But they've never killed anybody before. People have always survived retroviruses."
PaulKing - 26 May 2005 21:24 GMT ..several trips to have WB, Elisa and PCR 'tests' and then home alone to await the results.
Total cost around $500 and you don't even get laid.
Sounds so much fun. I can't wait to try it out.
Romantic too.
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 27 May 2005 04:27 GMT . You contributed remarks unattributed unreferenced without the original web link without the same web link without the exact web link without author names without publishers without publication dates without citations not clearly attributed not clearly referenced without clear citations improperly attributed improperly referenced improperly cited fallaciously attributed fallaciously referenced fallaciously cited
Please check your sources and relate the original source for people reading your contributed remarks to check for themselves...
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cite
"polymerase chain reaction" Kary Mullis who invented this test says quite clearly it does NOT show anything about so called 'HIV'. He should know
Please give a reference...
Two worthless tests don't add up to one good test. Try making calculations using two faulty calculators. The errors get WORSE not better. Another example of insane 'AID$' logic
If that's the case how is it that hiv human immunodeficiency virus has been eliminated by and large from the blood supply. Half of the hemophiliacs became infected, many of them died and now from this point on there have been almost no infections. They've been testing the blood for this so called imaginary hiv thing eliminating it from the blood and low and behold new hiv infections among hemophiliacs have stopped. How do they do that!?
A date with Don - $500 for nothing. ..several trips to have WB, Elisa and PCR 'tests' and then home alone to await the results. Total cost around $500 and you don't even get laid. Sounds so much fun. I can't wait to try it out
When people get diagnosed with cancer they often get hundreds if not thousands of dollars of tests. Isn't that the point?... to get tested, determine the case and then treat it? Well what if you had syphilis? That wouldn't be for nothing. Then you could start a treatment. Or gonorrhea? Or chlamydia? Then you can begin a treatment.
Mullis's invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) won him the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1993. PCR is a remarkably simply yet revolutionary method of selectively multiplying and mass-producing specific DNA segments in just hours.
Previously, DNA could be multiplied, but not isolated, and it is in the isolation that the revolutionary kernel lies. Scientists can now undertake everything from detecting hereditary cancers in foetuses, to solving impossible murder mysteries, to retracing the very depts of evolution. The London Observer trumpeted: "Not since James Watt walked across Glasgow Green in 1765 and realized that the secondary steam condenser would transform steam power, an inspiration that set loose the industrial revolution, has a single, momentous idea been so well recorded in time and place."
Mullis then went on to echo one of Duesberg's most controversial claims. "Human beings are full of retroviruses," he said, "We don't know if it is hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands.
We've only recently started to look for them. But they've never killed anybody before. People have always survived retroviruses."
Oh yes, the authoritative medical journal Spin! http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/cfarber.htm http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cfmullis.htm A 1994 issue! God knows nothing has changed in our understanding of biology since then!
He is long-standing member of the Group for the Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, the 500-member protest organization pushing for a re-examination of the cause of AIDS. http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cfmullis.htm
If they really exist and are examining it wouldn't they have something more recent than a decade ago? Have you a more recent reference?...
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:01 GMT You contributed remarks unattributed unreferenced without the original web link without the same web link without the exact web link without author names without publishers without publication dates without citations not clearly attributed not clearly referenced without clear citations improperly attributed improperly referenced improperly cited fallaciously attributed fallaciously referenced fallaciously cited
You are a total idiot Don.
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:03 GMT "He is long-standing member of the Group for the Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, the 500-member protest organization pushing for a re-examination of the cause of AIDS. "
It is now 4,000 strong with another 10,000 supporting members. Why repeat what has already been established.
If the PCR test was nonsense 10 years ago it is not about to become valid with the passage of time. It is not wine, you fool.
GMCarter - 27 May 2005 09:45 GMT >"He is long-standing member of the Group for the Reappraisal of >the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, the 500-member ... Bullshit. You have dead people and many others listed there from the early 90s who mostly now recognize HIV exists and causes AIDS. At least the ones who haven't long since died. Some of AIDS.
Yet another direct, outright lie, Mark.
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:06 GMT "When people get diagnosed with cancer they often get hundreds if not thousands of dollars of tests.'
But only if they have some reason to think they have cancer. They don't get tested before ever dinner engagement, do they?
At least with cancer a REAL test exists.
With 'AIDS' neither the syndrome NOR the test are real.
The ONLY real thing is the profit made from this shabby scam.
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:07 GMT "Oh yes, the authoritative medical journal Spin!"
One of the few publications willing to go up against the drugs companies. It is the authors not the publication that matters.
PaulKing - 27 May 2005 06:09 GMT " If they really exist and are examining it wouldn't they have something more recent than a decade ago?"
They have, you idiot. I just picked an article on the PCR topic, at random.
This board is packed with 2005 articles I have republished.
Stupid response.
GMCarter - 27 May 2005 09:47 GMT >This board is packed with 2005 articles I have republished. Indeed. Packed with the same garbage repeated ad nauseam (and one would think in violation of your TOS). Most of which have been responded to at length and very little of which supports your contention that HIV tests are useless.
You are an outright, bald-faced liar. And that, Mark, is the correct spelling. Not "lier."
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 28 May 2005 01:16 GMT Get stuffe you pathetic little creature.....
and liar
PaulKing - 28 May 2005 01:16 GMT Get stuffed you pathetic little creature.....
and liar
PaulKing - 28 May 2005 01:18 GMT Some test!
Factors Known to Cause False Positive HIV Antibody Test Results
1.Anti-carbohydrate antibodies 52,19,13 2.Naturally-occurring antibodies 5,19 3.Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune (as prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies) 18, 26, 60, 4, 22, 42, 43, 13 4.Leprosy 2, 25 5.Tuberculosis 25 6.Mycobacterium avium 25 7.Systemic lupus erythematosus 15, 23 8.Renal (kidney) failure 48, 23, 13 9.Hemodialysis/renal failure 56, 16, 41, 10, 49 10.Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients 54 11.Flu 36 12.Flu vaccination 30, 11, 3, 20, 13, 43 13.Herpes simplex I 27 14.Herpes simplex II 11 15.Upper respiratory tract infection (cold or flu) 11 16.Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines 11 17.Pregnancy in multiparous women 58, 53, 13, 43, 36 18.Malaria 6, 12 19.High levels of circulating immune complexes 6, 33 20.Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies) 40, 33 21.False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma reagent) test for syphilis 17, 48, 33, 10, 49 22.Rheumatoid arthritis 36 23.Hepatitis B vaccination 28, 21, 40, 43 24.Tetanus vaccination 40 25.Organ transplantation 1, 36 26.Renal transplantation 35, 9, 48, 13, 56 27.Anti-lymphocyte antibodies 56, 31 28.Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of both sexes and people with leprosy) 31 29.Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies) 14, 62, 53 30.Autoimmune diseases 44, 29, 1O, 40, 49, 43 31.Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease, dermatomyositis Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections 59, 48, 43, 53, 40, 13 32.Malignant neoplasms (cancers) 40 33.Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease 32, 48, 40, 10, 13, 49, 43, 53 34.Primary sclerosing cholangitis 48, 53 35.Hepatitis 54 36."Sticky" blood (in Africans) 38, 34, 40 37.Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test kits) 62, 40, 3 38.Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions 63, 36, 13, 49, 43, 41
39.Multiple myeloma 10, 43, 53 40.HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens) 7, 46, 63, 48, 10, 13, 49, 43, 53 41.Anti-smooth muscle antibody 48 42.Anti-parietal cell antibody 48 43.Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody) 48 44.Anti-Hbc IgM 48 45.Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985 10 46.Haemophilia 10, 49 47.Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma 43, 53, 9, 48, 13 48.Primary biliary cirrhosis 43, 53, 13, 48 49.Stevens-Johnson syndrome 9, 48, 13 50.Q-fever with associated hepatitis 61 51.Heat-treated specimens 51, 57, 24, 49, 48 52.Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids) 49 53.Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from red cells) 49 54.Hyperbilirubinemia 10, 13 55.Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in AIDS risk groups) 10, 13, 48 cross-reactions 10 57.Normal human ribonucleoproteins 48, 13 58.Other retroviruses 8, 55, 14, 48, 13 59.Anti-mitochondrial antibodies 48, 13 60.Anti-nuclear antibodies 48, 13, 53 61.Anti-microsomal antibodies 34 62.T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies 48, 13 63.Proteins on the filter paper 13 64.Epstein-Barr virus 37 65.Visceral leishmaniasis 45 66.Receptive anal sex 39, 64 Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list of conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause positives on HIV tests, and provides references for each condition. Christine notes: "Just because something is on this list doesn't mean that it will definitely, or even probably, cause a false-positive. It depends on what antibodies the individual carries as well as the characteristics of each particular test kit. For instance, some, but not all people who have had blood transfusions, prior pregnancies or an organ transplant will make HLA antibodies. And some, but not all test kits (both ELISA and Western blot) will be contaminated with HLA antigens to which these antibodies can react. Only if these two conditions coincide might you get a false-positive due to HLA cross-reactivity. There are conditions that are more likely than others to cause false-positives. And there are some conditions that we aren't aware of yet which may be documented in the future to cause false-positives. Some of the factors on the list have been documented only for ELISA, while some have been documented for both ELISA and Western blot (WB) tests. People may be eager to argue that if a factor is only known to cause false-positives on ELISA, this problem won't be carried over to the WB. But remember, a WB is positive by virtue of accumulating enough individual positive bands to add up to the total required by whatever criteria is used to interpret it 39. So the more exposure a person has had to foreign antigens, proteins and infectious agents, the more various antibodies he or she will have in their system, and the more likely it is that there will be several cross-reacting antibodies, enough to make the WB positive. It is to be noted that all AIDS risk groups (and Africans as well), but not the general US or Western European population, have this problem in common: they have been exposed to a plethora of foreign antigens and proteins. This is why people in the AIDS "risk groups" tend to have positive WBs (i.e., to be considered "HIV-infected") and people in the population don't. However, even people in low-risk populations have false-positive Western blots for poorly understood reasons 47. Since false-positives to every single HIV protein have been documented 36, how do we know if the positive WB bands represent the various proteins to HIV, or a collection of false-positive bands reacting to several different non-HIV antibodies?"
GMCarter - 28 May 2005 02:10 GMT >Some test! > >Factors Known to Cause >False Positive HIV Antibody Test Results Another bullshit post full of lies and distortions frequently responded to and regurgitated yet again.
These are lies, Mark. Demonstrably proven distortions in many cases. Oh, I don't dispute that a cross reaction here or there can occur--happens with all tests! Even less so with HIV. But most of this crap is just crap.
Google the thread. I posted it here recently. Thorough dissection of this.
But you want to believe so hard that HIV is some kind of figment.
HIV doesn't give a flying f.ck what myths you believe. And if you're infected, you'll wind up just like David Pasquarelli, 9 chances out of 10. You'll die of AIDS just like he did, having bought your lies.
George M. Carter
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 28 May 2005 02:15 GMT .
| Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list | of conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause | positives on HIV tests, and provides references for each | condition. What current tudies are there regarding her compilation?
Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's.
Gary Stein - 28 May 2005 02:42 GMT > . > | Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's. Christine Johnson is a journalist with a bias not a scientist. So your as likely to get the truth from her as you are to get the truth from Paul.
Gary Stein
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 28 May 2005 02:17 GMT Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list of conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause positives on HIV tests, and provides references for each condition.
What current studies are there regarding her compilation?
Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's.
dsaklad@zurich.csail.mit.edu - 28 May 2005 02:21 GMT Christine Johnson, a researcher and author, compiled this list of conditions documented in the scientific literature to cause positives on HIV tests, and provides references for each condition
What current studies are there regarding her compilation?
Now it's 2005. It's no longer the 1990's.
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