Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / January 2005
Mandela's Son Didn't Die Of AIDS
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Alex - 18 Jan 2005 00:42 GMT http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1391432,00.html
The fact that Makgatho had Aids was announced by his father immediately after his death and the gesture towards openness was applauded around the world. It was seen as a blow against the stigma attached to the disease in South Africa, which makes the pandemic so difficult to combat.
* Ironically, hospital sources have told The Observer Makgatho did not die of an Aids-related illness, but of a pancreatic cancer.* He had been on anti-retrovirals for some time and his Aids was described as being 'well under control'. It would, however, have affected his body's capacity to fight the problem with his pancreas.
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You know , things used to be simple. Back in the early eighties, people with AIDS basically had three ailments - extreme wasting, pcp (pneumonia) or lesions (kaposi sarcoma or "gay cancer").
I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses".
Alex
Rich MacDonald - 18 Jan 2005 01:33 GMT > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". People only die from extreme heart stoppage.
Alex - 18 Jan 2005 03:20 GMT > > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic > > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". > > People only die from extreme heart stoppage. "Extreme heart stoppage" is already an "AIDS defining illness" in South Africa. At least in 60% of cases.
Alex
hoarse with no name - 18 Jan 2005 07:00 GMT > > > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic > > > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Alex It's all the same. Some rhodie/boer f.cked your wife and and you can't move on.
Skokkie - 18 Jan 2005 07:45 GMT > > > > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic > > > > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's all the same. Some rhodie/boer f.cked your wife and and you can't > move on. It wasn't me
Ferdi Greyling - 18 Jan 2005 12:37 GMT <<>It's all the same. Some rhodie/boer f.cked your wife and and you can't move on.>>
You are so true to your type.
Employees of Pyongyang Textile Plant keep their hairstyle and dressing neat and tidy - 19 Jan 2005 22:25 GMT "Alex" <avdeelen.REMOFE@wanadoo.nl> wrote...
>> > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic >> > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Extreme heart stoppage" is already an "AIDS defining illness" > in South Africa. At least in 60% of cases. Well, technically no one ever really dies of "AIDS" at all. HIV really doesn't kill the victim, it simply destroys the immune system allowing even the most harmless bacteria and viruses to invade the body and their uncontrolled reproduction is what leads to death. From your point of view, even Ebola doesn't really kill the victim, it is the massive blood loss from the uncontrolled hemorraging of blood vessels that causes "extreme heart stoppage." It is simply insane to blame the Ebola virus for the death, as it was actually heart failure that killed the patient, something that could actually be caused by thousands of other conditions and thus not an "Ebola-related death" (in fact, Ebola is a perfectly harmless virus, it is just the evil & greedy pharmaceutical industry that is trying to scare people into believing Ebola exists and causes "disease").
Death - 20 Jan 2005 04:09 GMT "Rich MacDonald" <rich@@clevercaboose.com> wrote in message
> People only die from extreme heart stoppage. Then hang on to your hat
Jan 19, 1:06 PM (ET)
By ALAN SAYRE
NEW ORLEANS (AP) - The Louisiana Supreme Court on Wednesday unanimously reinstated the anti-gay marriage amendment to the state constitution that was overwhelmingly approved by voters in September.
The high court reversed a state district judge's ruling in October striking down the amendment on the grounds that it violated a provision of the state constitution requiring that an amendment cover only one subject.
"Each provision of the amendment is germane to the single object of defense of marriage and constitutes an element of the plan advanced to achieve this object," the high court said.
The court's ruling puts the amendment in the constitution.
"We're obviously delighted," said attorney Michael Johnson, who represented the Alliance Defense Fund, which argued for the amendment's legality before the Supreme Court.
The Louisiana Gay and Lesbian Political Action Coalition said a statement would be released shortly.
The amendment was sent to the ballot by the Legislature and approved by 78 percent of the voters on Sept. 18.
Legislative backers said that although gay marriages are banned by state law, the amendment was needed to ensure that courts would not authorize the marriages, as had happened in Massachusetts.
In striking down the "defense of marriage" amendment, Judge William Morvant of Baton Rouge had ruled that the amendment also prevented the state from recognizing any legal status for common-law relationships, domestic partnerships and civil unions between both gay and heterosexual couples.
Six of the justices joined in the majority opinion authored by Justice Jeanette Theriot Knoll. The seventh, Chief Justice Pascal Calogero, wrote a concurring opinion.
At issue was a provision of the amendment that stated: "A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be recognized."
Opponents had warned that the amendment went far beyond banning gay marriage and would deny contractual rights to all unmarried couples - whether gay or heterosexual - in such areas as owning property, willing it to heirs, and taking legal care of an incapacitated partner. As a result, they contended, the amendment had more than one object, and therefore could not become part of the constitution.
But the Supreme Court said the each part of the amendment is "germane to the object of 'defense of marriage.'"
Eleven other states adopted similar amendments in the fall elections. President George Bush also has proposed a federal anti-gay marriage amendment.
Sir.Tony - 23 Jan 2005 14:45 GMT Michael Jackson confessed on the Usenet. He finally owned-up to the child abuse crimes at Neverland & threatened to take his-own life.
http://tinyurl.com/6u3g2
Bong - 18 Jan 2005 04:00 GMT > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". > > Alex You don't know much do you !
Is your rapidly diminishing brain cell count AID's related ?
Alex - 18 Jan 2005 05:45 GMT > > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic > > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". > > You don't know much do you ! > > Is your rapidly diminishing brain cell count AID's related ? Is your retardation inbreeding related?
Alex
Skokkie - 18 Jan 2005 07:46 GMT > > > I never knew that a bad gall bladder operation, or pancreatic > > > cancer were "AIDS defining illnesses". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Alex The both of you should knock offf sniffing glue - you really cannot afford to lose anymore brain cells!
hoarse with no name - 18 Jan 2005 06:59 GMT > You know , things used to be simple. Back in the early eighties, > people with AIDS basically had three ailments - extreme wasting, > pcp (pneumonia) or lesions (kaposi sarcoma or "gay cancer"). AIDS means acquired immune deficiency syndrome. Once your immune system is compromised the form your eventual death takes is a roll of the dice.
Skokkie - 18 Jan 2005 07:53 GMT > > You know , things used to be simple. Back in the early eighties, > > people with AIDS basically had three ailments - extreme wasting, > > pcp (pneumonia) or lesions (kaposi sarcoma or "gay cancer"). > > AIDS means acquired immune deficiency syndrome. Once your immune system > is compromised the form your eventual death takes is a roll of the dice. That more or less summs it up and explains the difficulties encountered in the productuion of accurate stats.
The original assertion in this thread sounds to me like something that could have been produced by Mbeki's spindoctors in an attempt to try and overcome Mandela's spin. We have seen incidences of this before - esp at the time of Mandela's 9/11 denouncement. It reminds me of the Blair Brown war in the UK, and co-incidentally Brown is in SA paying more attention to Mandela than the internationally renown diplomatic marvel. - wonder if M'peki will spit his dummy?
Ferdi Greyling - 18 Jan 2005 12:39 GMT <<>AIDS means acquired immune deficiency syndrome. Once your immune system
>is compromised the form your eventual death takes is a roll of the dice.>> Are you the same racist that posted earlier in this thread?
john - 18 Jan 2005 08:11 GMT so he died from cancer and drugs, figures
doesn't say much for Mandela's honesty, or knowledge
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1391432,00.html > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Alex GMCarter - 18 Jan 2005 10:04 GMT >so he died from cancer and drugs, figures > >doesn't say much for Mandela's honesty, or knowledge Hmmm...there I thought you might have had a good heart tho while being a fool.
Now I see you're an abject bigot. Eh. Figures.
GMCarter - 18 Jan 2005 10:03 GMT snip
>* Ironically, hospital sources have told The Observer Makgatho did not die >of an Aids-related illness, but of a pancreatic cancer.* What utter crap. Like anyone in their right mind would make up a death by AIDS in a world of bigotry, stigma and discrimination.
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 18 Jan 2005 23:22 GMT Like anyone would make up 'weapons of mass destruction' in a world filled with war.
You are an idiot Carter.
GMCarter - 19 Jan 2005 10:52 GMT >Like anyone would make up 'weapons of mass destruction' in a world filled >with war. > >You are an idiot Carter. Well, gosh, I'm such a darn idiot, I can't make head nor tail out of that one. You have that MRI yet?
WMD: a lie to cause death and destruction, to waste billions, all for oil. And some bullshit lie about "democracy" in the Middle East. (Just like Kuwait has now; apparently, "democracy" is the same as "oligarchical caliphate" judging from the coronation ceremonies about to be undertaken in DC.)
HIV: A virus that doesn't give a damn about your delusions. And one that causes some people to behave really horribly, often, when they find out someone is infected. Firing people from jobs, kicking out of the home, beating, throwing people in the garbage when they're too ill to fend for themselves, disowning, beating, murdering.
Coming out about HIV is a frightening and potentially dangerous thing to do in some parts of the world. For Mandela to admit his son died of AIDS was an act of bravery, yet another in a lifetime of bravery fighting oppression, stigma and discrimination.
For Condoleeza Rice to be appointed as Secy of State is simply another insult to the credibility of the United States as she was one of the architects and primary liars in the build-up to an unnecessary war. We could have sent in 5,000 inspectors and discovered there was no threat.
Instead, we will have a region in chaos, further anger, deeper divides, civil war and an increase in terrorism while they trot about in their delusional belief that they are bringing democracy to justify all the young Americans being maimed and killed when all they really want is the oil. Meanwhile, not only ignoring the genuine dangers in the world but actually exacerbating them.
Oh. That's it. Denialists are delusional sh.ts that will cling to any slim evidence to satisfy themselves they can f.ck without a condom and pretend the real dangers are unimportant.
There's your parallel.
George M. Carter
Brian Mailman - 19 Jan 2005 18:15 GMT > WMD: a lie to cause death and destruction, to waste billions, all for > oil. And some bullshit lie about "democracy" in the Middle East. (Just > like Kuwait has now; apparently, "democracy" is the same as > "oligarchical caliphate" judging from the coronation ceremonies about > to be undertaken in DC.) I find it odd they (I never say "we" now, in fact, man San Franciscans now refer to lands across the Bay as "the continent") need to "bring democracy" to the Middle East but do nothing about Kuwait. That one reason to invade Afghanistan was "the women" (never mind the Taliban hadn't been doing anything differently than they had been), but tore apart the one society in the area that did grant full rights to women--and now with the new improved Iraq women can't obtain a divorce on their own....
> For Condoleeza Rice to be appointed as Secy of State is simply another > insult to the credibility of the United States as she was one of the > architects and primary liars in the build-up to an unnecessary war. Speaking of bravery, I'm so proud of our Barbara Boxer; I'm sure she's now in their target zone. I think we can now expect tens of millions of dollars to flow into California to defeat her in the next cycle.
B/
GMCarter - 19 Jan 2005 23:13 GMT snip...>
>Speaking of bravery, I'm so proud of our Barbara Boxer; I'm sure she's >now in their target zone. I think we can now expect tens of millions of >dollars to flow into California to defeat her in the next cycle. My quartet friends were kind of dissing it as too little too late and a bit of gesture. But I agree with you--and think I convinced them. She HAD to stand up to the juggernaut of bullshit coming out of the Shite House, especially that lying harridan, Rice.
Sadly, it will have little impact on the coming rage of death and destruction forthcoming from this evil bunch. LOL....and they wrap themselves in right wing fundy christian "morality." But then cognitive dissonance and fantasy are the stock in trade of Bush et al.
The "continent" is good but I prefer "dumbfuckistan."
George M. Carter
Brian Mailman - 20 Jan 2005 04:29 GMT > snip...> >>Speaking of bravery, I'm so proud of our Barbara Boxer; I'm sure she's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My quartet friends were kind of dissing it as too little too late and > a bit of gesture. Better late than never (and she said she pulled that stunt on the electoral schtuff out of guilt for not speaking up four years ago)--and if a gesture, considering the way they practice vengeance politics had to be carefully weighed. I believe the gesture was meant to be "this time we're not just rolling over the way we did the first time."
I left a message at Feinstein's office that forget the spine, just more starch and if she doesn't begin to exhibit it then she's not MY representative and I'm not voting for her again. And if the seat goes Repugnican, so be it.
> But I agree with you--and think I convinced them. > She HAD to stand up to the juggernaut of bullshit coming out of the > Shite House, Yes. But why am I thinking of I, Claudius and the one Senator with integrity slashing his wrists in the tub?
> especially that lying harridan, Rice. "She'll die with her secret," as we said in the old days.
I just wish more would be doing that thing of comparison side-by-side: "You said ______, then, and __________ now."
> LOL....and they wrap > themselves in right wing fundy christian "morality." But then > cognitive dissonance and fantasy are the stock in trade of Bush et al. You know what's REALLY scary? That bit Bush said today about the glory of the US coming "from beyond the stars."
> The "continent" is good but I prefer "dumbfuckistan." Heh. If only the Mime Troupe could use that as a title... http://www.sfmt.org
In the meantime: http://jesuspenis.ericschwartz.com/media/video/JP_Full2.wmv
it's a long download on dialup, but word it.
B/
GMCarter - 20 Jan 2005 05:25 GMT snip...>
>I left a message at Feinstein's office that forget the spine, just more >starch and if she doesn't begin to exhibit it then she's not MY >representative and I'm not voting for her again. And if the seat goes >Repugnican, so be it. I'm feeling that way more and more about Hilary.
> > But I agree with you--and think I convinced them. >> She HAD to stand up to the juggernaut of bullshit coming out of the >> Shite House, > >Yes. But why am I thinking of I, Claudius and the one Senator with >integrity slashing his wrists in the tub? I imagine you're right. Since democracy now means "oligarchical caliphate" apparently. If she (Barbara) leaves intact, I hope she is as effective and even more so as a private citizen again!
> > especially that lying harridan, Rice. > >"She'll die with her secret," as we said in the old days. > >I just wish more would be doing that thing of comparison side-by-side: >"You said ______, then, and __________ now." But there IS! http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/lies.htm http://bushwatch.org/bushlies.htm
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20040329&s=scheer
> > LOL....and they wrap >> themselves in right wing fundy christian "morality." But then >> cognitive dissonance and fantasy are the stock in trade of Bush et al. > >You know what's REALLY scary? That bit Bush said today about the glory >of the US coming "from beyond the stars." ewg. Missed that one. Sounds like it ranks up there with his post-9/11 "crusade" comment.
>> The "continent" is good but I prefer "dumbfuckistan." > >Heh. If only the Mime Troupe could use that as a title... >http://www.sfmt.org LOL. 1600 Transylvania Avenue! At least not all the youth are being swept into the yung repugnicans...all off at da liberry there, readin bout that nucular terror...
>In the meantime: >http://jesuspenis.ericschwartz.com/media/video/JP_Full2.wmv > >it's a long download on dialup, but word it. Thank heavens Gore invented DSL.... George Mary
Lwt Sculler - 19 Jan 2005 22:32 GMT Alex you stupid clot.
You dont die of Aids. You die of any disease your body gets infected with because there is no defence system to fight the disease, whatever the disease.
Alex - 20 Jan 2005 11:08 GMT > Alex you stupid clot. Not so fast...
> You dont die of Aids. I thought that was exactly what you were supposed to die of.
> You die of any disease your body gets infected > with because there is no defence system to fight the disease, whatever > the disease. Lwt Sculler you retard,
Cancer is not an infectious disease, let alone an opportunistic infection. Therefore, pancreatic cancer is not an AIDS indicator disease. Or even an AIDS related illness.
Unless of course you're one of the "cancer virus" crowd, like the inventors of HIV.
Your oldfashioned idea of "AIDS", which held sway in the 1980s, was a pretty simple proposition. You contract HIV. Eight years later, HIV becomes activated, starts to destroy the cells of your immune system, and finally you succumb to any opportunistic infection that comes along. The problem is that those infections were pretty specific. People died of PCP, KS, or extreme wasting. Then, for some reason, "opportunistic infections" were expanded to any viral or bacterial infection. Then, it was expanded to cancer, cardiovascular disease (strokes, etc.), dementia and what not. In Africa, the "opportunistic infections" were never so specific as to amount to "AIDS defining illnesses". Malaria, tuberculosis, leprosy, etc. are immediately labeled AIDS if they coincide with a positive HIV test. Or, if there is no money to perform these tests, they are labeled "AIDS" without an HIV test.
Alex
Lwt Sculler - 20 Jan 2005 11:42 GMT Dear Alex
As a person who works in HIV health* I can tell you only read the newspapers. Fact: Simply put, the HIV virus compromises the immune system by destroying the T-Cells (and others) which fight off the assault. You are right that Pancreatic cancer is not AIDS - but by being HIV+ pancreatic cancer would be unabated. Same is also true for TB and the Hepatitus strains et al.
I suggest you and your conspiracy theorist friends something else to bark on about.
* I provide remedial exercise programmes through the NHS (UK) for those living with HIV.
GMCarter - 20 Jan 2005 12:17 GMT >Dear Alex > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >being HIV+ pancreatic cancer would be unabated. Same is also true for >TB and the Hepatitus strains et al. Well, I think this is partially true. If someone develops pancreatic cancer, the prognosis is pretty grim. 6 months maybe. HIV MIGHT have something to do with the *course* of that but it's not likely to cause it. By contrast, herpes-related "cancers" like Kaposi's sarcoma and some types of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma ARE HIV-related.
The real issue is whether this is not just some made up bullshit by denialists who don't want to believe that HIV exists or causes AIDS, so they'll claim pancreatic cancer killed Mandela's son. I think if that is what killed him, Mandela would have said so.
Basically, they're spouting bullshit once again. What's new?
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 21 Jan 2005 01:05 GMT The Bull sh.t here is from you, Carter.
You are a mindless, obsessive 'AIDS' fanatic with a shortage of brain cells and even plain old common sense.
Gary Stein - 20 Jan 2005 19:42 GMT >> Alex you stupid clot. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Therefore, pancreatic cancer is not an AIDS indicator disease. Or even > an AIDS related illness. It is however a side effect of some treatments for AIDs and AIDS related illnesses. So it would be perfectly reasonable to say that the death was AIDS related even if the cause was Pancreatic Cancer.
When someone dies from infections suffered as a result of the use of anti-rejection medications needed by transplant patients did they die as a result of the transplant or the infection? Which ever you choose is equally true and thus there is no deception involved. The same can be said for any AIDS patient who dies due to a medical reason. The exact level of causality of the actual death inducing agent and AIDS will differ with each patient but in the vast majority AIDS will have played a major factor either directly or due to the side effects of treatment.
Gary Stein
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