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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / November 2004

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Syphilis Outbreak Hasn't Led to HIV

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PaulKing - 18 Nov 2004 00:31 GMT
Syphilis Outbreak Hasn't Led to HIV

Health officials in San Francisco and Los Angeles braced themselves for
the worst when they saw an explosion of syphilis cases in gay men, but the
rise they expected to see in subsequent HIV infections hasn't
materialized.

A new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
finds that, between 1999 and 2002, the increase in syphilis has "not had a
substantial impact on rates of new HIV infection" among men who have sex
with men.

In fact, researchers said, the number of new HIV cases declined slightly
in both cities.

According to the article in the CDC publication Morbidity and Mortality
Weekly Report, experts worried about a rise in HIV in this population
because syphilis makes the acquisition and transmission of the AIDS virus
easier.

Officials checked with major HIV testing centers in San Francisco and Los
Angeles. They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men
declined slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose
by a factor of 20. In Los Angeles, meanwhile, the percentage of new HIV
cases in this population fell from 4.8 percent to 4.1 percent, even though
the syphilis rate rose 40-fold.
David Canzi -- non-mailable address - 18 Nov 2004 05:28 GMT
>Officials checked with major HIV testing centers in San Francisco and Los
>Angeles. They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men
>declined slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose
>by a factor of 20.

According to the MMWR, there are over 50,000 men who have sex with
men (MSM) in San Francisco.  The MMWR used statistics from two San
Francisco testing sites, SFCC and AHP.  The estimated HIV incidences
at these two sites were 3.3% and 2.3%.  2.3% of 50,000 is 1,150.

The number of MSM diagnosed with primary & secondary syphilis was 4 in
1998, 260 in 2002.  Of 74 MSM with syphilis who agreed to be tested
for HIV, 4 were found to have recent HIV infections.  4/72 = 5.4%.
5.4% of 260 = 14.  Underwhelming.

The nature of the goal-directed misinterpretation you were using here
was actually easy to guess before I looked up the MMWR these figures
come from.

Are you familiar with the concept of induction, Mark?  If the
literature you quote to support your position is shown, repeatedly,
to be based on dodgy "facts" and/or dodgy "reasoning", sooner or
later a rational person concludes that all the literature you quote
to support your position will be dodgy.

Below are relevant quotes from the MMWR,
<http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5326a1.htm>

"estimated 50,782 MSM living in San Francisco in 2001"

"During 1998--2002, the number of P&S syphilis cases among MSM in
San Francisco increased from four to 260 "

"HIV incidence was lower (e.g., in 2002, incidence was 2.3% [95% CI =
1.0--3.5] at AHP and 3.3% [95% CI = 1.9--4.7] at SFCC),"

"HIV incidence was estimated by STARHS for men who had P&S syphilis
diagnosed at SFCC in 2002 and 2003 and who accepted confidential
HIV-antibody and STARHS testing. Of 74 men, 16 (22%) were HIV
seropositive, and four (25%) of these had a recent HIV infection
identified by STARHS; all four of these patients reported having had
HIV-seronegative test results within the previous 2 years."

Signature

David Canzi

PaulKing - 18 Nov 2004 06:33 GMT
My God you try to twist everything, no matter how clear, to fit your
pathetic logic.

"They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men declined
slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose by a
factor of 20."

How much clearer can you get?
David Canzi -- non-mailable address - 18 Nov 2004 08:33 GMT
>My God you try to twist everything, no matter how clear, to fit your
>pathetic logic.

If you were right and I was wrong, you would be able to quote what
I said, and show which of my figures (taken directly from the MMWR)
or calculations are wrong, instead of responding impotently with
fact-free insults.

Try again, Oblio:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=cnhbur%2463a%241%40rumours.uwaterloo.ca>

>"They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men declined
>slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose by a
>factor of 20."
>
>How much clearer can you get?

The factor of 20 is unimpressive, because the larger figure it's
based on is still too small to have a significant effect on the
HIV statistics.

Signature

David Canzi

GMCarter - 18 Nov 2004 11:12 GMT
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:33:12 +0000 (UTC),
dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address)
wrote:

snip
>The factor of 20 is unimpressive, because the larger figure it's
>based on is still too small to have a significant effect on the
>HIV statistics.

An interesting perspective on the relevance of the statistics. Thanks.
Though I don't think anyone would argue that SF and NYC have BOTH seen
substantial rises in syphilis rates.

The happy news is that this does not necessarily mean a concomitant
increase in HIV. Syphilis is probably more easily acquired through
unprotected oral sex. I know few people who "suck condoms." By
contrast, HIV is not too likely to be transmitted through oral sex. So
if syphilis goes up but unprotected anal intercourse remains low,
there won't necessarily be an increase in HIV incidence. It's just a
hypothesis.

However, there is still an alarmingly high incidence of HIV,
particularly among younger gay men and African Americans. In part
related to increased use of crystal meth. And otherwise fostered by
the exaggerated notion that HIV is a manageable infection. It is, but
not easily by any stretch.

        George M. Carter
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 18 Nov 2004 18:09 GMT
>On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:33:12 +0000 (UTC),
>dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address)
>wrote:

>Though I don't think anyone would argue that SF and NYC have BOTH seen
>substantial rises in syphilis rates.

Not matched by rises in HIV transmission, as has been the case over
the past 2+ decades.

>Syphilis is probably more easily acquired through unprotected oral sex.

Probably?

George Mary doesn't take valuable time away from posting to
do the research.

>I know few people who "suck condoms."

The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might
expect from an aging gay man in the sea of the young and
beautiful gay men that is New York.

Sucks.

Blackie
GMCarter - 19 Nov 2004 11:19 GMT
snip
>The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might
>expect from an aging gay man in the sea of the young and
>beautiful gay men that is New York.

LOL. Frod Show takes on another sock puppet persona. Hiya, Frod!

Speaking of aging, how old, fat and ugly are you anyway?

Love,
George Mary
Nick Bennett - 20 Nov 2004 03:46 GMT
> snip
> >The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might
> >expect from an aging gay man in the sea of the young and
> >beautiful gay men that is New York.
>
> LOL. Frod Show takes on another sock puppet persona. Hiya, Frod!

I was thinking the same thing...a disused anonymous account, familiar
rhetoric and abuse...  We might well have our favourite dissident back
in the ranks!

Cheers

Bennett
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 22 Nov 2004 16:58 GMT
>> snip
>> >The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>rhetoric and abuse...  We might well have our favourite dissident back
>in the ranks!

Frod? Methinks not.

Dissident? When one considers that the "dissidents" are the ones in
command of the science here, then the label applies.

Blackie
David Canzi -- non-mailable address - 22 Nov 2004 21:38 GMT
>... Methinks not.

Rene Descartes walks into a bar.  The bartender asks him, "would
you like something to drink?"  "I think not," Descartes replies,
then disappears.

Signature

David Canzi

GMCarter - 23 Nov 2004 11:49 GMT
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:38:53 +0000 (UTC),
dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address)
wrote:

>Rene Descartes walks into a bar.  The bartender asks him, "would
>you like something to drink?"  "I think not," Descartes replies,
>then disappears.

LOL!! Best laugh of the day!!

    George M. Cartesian
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 23 Nov 2004 16:03 GMT
>On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:38:53 +0000 (UTC),
>dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>you like something to drink?"  "I think not," Descartes replies,
>>then disappears.

George Dubya Carter walks into a bar. The bartender asks him "would
you like something to drink?" "How much will you pay me to try one
of your cocktails", George Dubya inquires, as he greedily awaits
the bartender's response...
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 18 Nov 2004 17:54 GMT
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:33:12 +0000 (UTC),
dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address)
wrote:

>>"They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men declined
>>slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose by a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>based on is still too small to have a significant effect on the
>HIV statistics.

Canzi Pants and the other drug company perverts of public relations
employ are not permitted to engage in factual discourse - they are
here to poison the waters.

Nonetheless, since the late 1970's the dissociation between HIV and
syphilis infection rates (a marker for high-risk sexual behavior) has
clearly demonstrated the difficulty in transmitting HIV.

The studies have been repeatedly published on this newsgroup,
particularly when the discussions were about the HIV epidemic
resulting from the CDC Hepatitis B vaccine human experiments
targeting the gay bathhouses in the late 1970s-early 1980s.

The Hep-B vaccine-AIDS argument is clearly bolstered by the
virtual absence of OIs no longer seen since the vaccine epidemic
(e.g. Kaposi's sarcoma is rarely seen now - it was common in the
1980s).

As to the syphilis-HIV disconnect, over the years even Dr. Holzman
has refused to engage in this little embarassment.

And who could blame him?

Blackie
DissidentSaint - 28 Nov 2004 03:59 GMT
This is what ACT-UP/SF and David Pasquarelli were saying a few years
back which resulted in their being jailed as political prisoners. It
seems they proven right again and that statistical or selective bias
in the sample was due to the increase in numbers of gay men being
tested. Like David, I am calling out homophobia among AIDS Dissidents
and AIDS Apologists.

Kelly Jon Landis

Smart 'Bugs' or Smart Bombs? The Infectious Model of 'AIDS' Does
Discriminate And Selectively Biases Gay Men [LINK T DISCUSSION THREAD
ON ANOTHER FORUM, HIV/AIDS ALTERNATIVE VIEWS]
http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=619.1

SAN FRANCISCO -- Gay activists, angered over unverified health
department
claims of a "big syphilis spike" allegedly driven by gay internet chat
rooms,
today urged America Online (AOL) to resist pressure from government
health
officials to post STD warnings exclusively in cyberspots where
homosexual men
meet. ACT UP members called the posting plan the "bigoted brainchild"
of Dr.
Jeffrey Klausner, Director of San Francisco's STD Prevention Unit, and
warned
that it is a frightening measure to invade homosexual men's privacy
online
and undermine the gay male community's self-esteem and safety. To
counter the proposed AOL posting plan, activists demanded the
immediate resignation of
Klausner calling him "the gay community's public enemy #1."

"Where is the evidence of this alleged syphilis increase and the proof
that,
if it exists at all, gay chat rooms are to blame?" asked ACT UP member
David
Pasquarelli. "Klausner stammers on endlessly about gay sex spreading
disease
and death without any verifiable numbers published in peer-reviewed
studies.
It's called sexual scapegoating and San Francisco's gay male community
has
had enough. Jeffrey Klausner must go!"

ACT UP San Francisco members demand that:

1) America Online refrain from singling out gay men and targeting them
with
STD warnings. Furthermore, AOL must refuse to be pressured into
violating
patron privacy by being used as a health department vehicle to harass
gay
subscribers.

2) The San Francisco Department of Public Health must submit all STD
and AIDS numbers to an independent entity that verifies statistics and
interprets
their analysis before releasing them to the media. Results of the
independent
statistical analysis will be presented to the gay community through a
fair
and balanced public forum prior to any comments made to the press by
public
health officials.

3) The San Francisco Department of Public Health must immediately
terminate
Dr. Jeffrey Klausner's employment for engaging in ongoing homophobic
actions
that compromise the self-esteem and safety of the gay community. His
conduct violates the department's mission to promote community health
by compromising the gay community's psychological well-being. The
health department's harassment of gays, under Klausner's leadership,
is a violation of the city's human rights and anti-discrimination
ordinances.

-----

ACT UP members point out that in 1999 the San Francisco Department of
Public
Health broadcast alarmist full-page ads in the gay press featuring
pictures
of ticking time bombs and scary headlines about an out-of-control
syphilis
outbreak. However, upon investigation, activists discovered that the
statistics showed syphilis at its lowest rates ever with steep
declines in
the number of positive results per tests administered. ACT UP alleged
that
DPH was playing a deceptive numbers game by concealing that they
drastically
increased syphilis screening and targeted gay men to cook up higher
numbers
for STD and AIDS funding purposes.

Like a bad Halloween repeat, the syphilis scare resurfaced this week
in an
October 26, 2001 article by Christopher Heredia of the San Francisco
Chronicle entitled "Big spike in cases of syphilis in S.F." As in the
past,
no numbers of tests administered were provided to the public in order
to put
into perspective the number of syphilis-positive results. More
frightening,
however, were demands by Dr. Klausner for America Online to institute
a
radically anti-gay policy of posting intrusive STD warnings
exclusively in
gay chat rooms.

ACT UP members warn that following Klausner's bogus 1999 syphilis
scare,
homophobic harassment of gay America Online chat rooms skyrocketed
("Net
syphilis issue spurs hate mail," August 26, 1999, San Francisco
Examiner)

"We're sick of the Department of Homophobia demonizing our most
intimate
moments as diseased and deadly in order to drum up more government
funding,"
commented an angry Todd Swindell of ACT UP. "The end result of their
alarmist
actions is always the same: more anti-gay harassment and violence.
We're not
going to stand for it anymore!"

=====

San Francisco Examiner
August 26, 1999

Net syphilis issue spurs hate mail
-----
By Ilene Lelchuk
of the Examiner Staff

An Internet chat room for gay men was bombarded with hate mail
following
media reports that health officials traced a syphilis outbreak to
people who
met there.

Users of the America Online chat room SFM4M -- San Francisco Men 4 Men
-- who
logged on Wednesday said they received anti-gay messages filled with
profanity and death threats.

"I logged on at 7 a.m. and rather than have a nervous breakdown I
logged
off," said Jay, who declined to give his full name because he feared
more
harassment.

Jay, a 34-year-old Web page designer in San Francisco, said he
forwarded the
worst messages to AOL officials.

AOL spokesman Rich D'Amato, who was not aware of the on-screen
attacks, said
AOL has a Community Action Team that can monitor problems in chat
rooms. "Any
kind of personal or community-directed harassment would violate AOL's
terms
of service," D'Amato said.

The flood of anti-gay messages followed publicity surrounding the San
Francisco Health Department's attempt to track a disease through
cyberspace
for the first time. The department launched its computer-age campaign
after a
few men tested positive for syphilis and told health officials that
they met
their last partners in SFM4M.

The Health Department wanted to warn other chat room users about the
syphilis
cases, but the participants are virtually anonymous and known only by
their
screen personas. AOL, following its strict privacy policy, declined to
release names, phone numbers or addresses without a court order.

So health officials paired with PlanetOut, the largest online service
for
gays, lesbians and bisexuals. PlanetOut has spent the last three weeks
in the
chat room warning users about the outbreak.

And their campaign is working, said Jeffrey Klausner, director of the
Health
Department's sexually transmitted diseases division. The number of men
who
visit city clinics for testing has doubled.

Eight men who met their recent sex partners in SFM4M tested positive
for
syphilis. A ninth infected man said he met his partners on an Internet
relay
chat room, or IRC.

Three of the San Francisco men also reported that they tested HIV
positive,
Klausner said.

Although the number of cases is small so far, the implications are
big.
Klausner said a syphilis outbreak could have a major impact on San
Francisco's gay community because the disease causes genital sores,
which
increase the victim's likelihood of contracting and spreading HIV.

In the SFM4M chat room Wednesday, visitors discussed the Health
Department's
campaign, the resulting publicity and the flood of homophobic
on-screen
attacks.

"It's kinda sad that (the chat room) has that bad rep now and (the
publicity)
really makes gay people look like dogs in heat," wrote one man who
declined
to identify himself.

Tom Rielly, founder of PlanetOut, said that he isn't surprised by the
anti-gay messages now hitting the chat room. "But I don't buy into the
argument that because (the public health campaign) might shed an
unfavorable
light on the gay community that you shouldn't talk about it all,"
Rielly
said.

Among Rielly's critics are David Pasquarelli of Act Up San Francisco,
whose
group questions whether HIV causes AIDS. ACT UP placed an ad last week
in the
Bay Area Reporter warning that the "syphilis scare is an anti-gay lie"
and
that a handful of cases doesn't constitute an outbreak.

"Their alarmism is demonizing gay sex . . . ultimately fueling
violence
against gay men," Pasquarelli said.

But Klausner defended his campaign. "The role of the Health Department
is to
use information it has to protect the health of the public," Klausner
said.
"We weigh very seriously the decisions to issue health alerts to
medical
providers and to the community at large."

Cases of syphilis -- a bacterial infection easily treated with
antibiotics
when detected early -- are at an all-time national low. In fact, the
Centers
for Disease Control and Prevention targeted the disease for
elimination.

In San Francisco, 17 cases of recent infection were reported during
the first
six months of 1999, compared to 25 cases reported during the same
period in
1998.

=====

ACT UP San Francisco
1884 Market Street * San Francisco, California 94102
Phone: (415) 864-6686 * Fax: (415) 864-6687 * www.actupsf.com
Jason Voorhees - 19 Nov 2004 18:34 GMT
"PaulKing" <aimulti@aimultimedia.com> wrote...
> Syphilis Outbreak Hasn't Led to HIV
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In fact, researchers said, the number of new HIV cases declined slightly
> in both cities.

But that might be because that population group is already saturated with
HIV.  If everyone in the group already has HIV, then it no surprise to
see no increase in "new infections" as the article reports.  I assume that
gay men start out with HIV then add diseases over time - the outbreak of
syphilis is just the latest fad.  I also don't know how accurate the
numbers are if those being tested consent to a syphilis test but not an
HIV test.  Virtually every state has some sort of law requiring explicit
consent before testing for HIV - even in cases such as health care
workers getting stuck by needles and aren't allowed to force the patient
to be tested - so it is quite possible that many of the gay men who
consented to be tested for syphilis (which has obvious painful symptoms)
and did not consent to an HIV test (ignorance is bliss when it comes to
painless HIV).
PaulKing - 27 Nov 2004 11:12 GMT
"But that might be because that population group is already saturated with
HIV."

If America is 'saturated' then you are admitting that the African figures
are pure nonsense.

How does a population reach saturation at anything below 100% infection?

Talk about grasping at straws to support a flawed hypothesis.
 
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