Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / November 2004
Syphilis Outbreak Hasn't Led to HIV
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PaulKing - 18 Nov 2004 00:31 GMT Syphilis Outbreak Hasn't Led to HIV
Health officials in San Francisco and Los Angeles braced themselves for the worst when they saw an explosion of syphilis cases in gay men, but the rise they expected to see in subsequent HIV infections hasn't materialized.
A new report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention finds that, between 1999 and 2002, the increase in syphilis has "not had a substantial impact on rates of new HIV infection" among men who have sex with men.
In fact, researchers said, the number of new HIV cases declined slightly in both cities.
According to the article in the CDC publication Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, experts worried about a rise in HIV in this population because syphilis makes the acquisition and transmission of the AIDS virus easier.
Officials checked with major HIV testing centers in San Francisco and Los Angeles. They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men declined slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose by a factor of 20. In Los Angeles, meanwhile, the percentage of new HIV cases in this population fell from 4.8 percent to 4.1 percent, even though the syphilis rate rose 40-fold.
David Canzi -- non-mailable address - 18 Nov 2004 05:28 GMT >Officials checked with major HIV testing centers in San Francisco and Los >Angeles. They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men >declined slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose >by a factor of 20. According to the MMWR, there are over 50,000 men who have sex with men (MSM) in San Francisco. The MMWR used statistics from two San Francisco testing sites, SFCC and AHP. The estimated HIV incidences at these two sites were 3.3% and 2.3%. 2.3% of 50,000 is 1,150.
The number of MSM diagnosed with primary & secondary syphilis was 4 in 1998, 260 in 2002. Of 74 MSM with syphilis who agreed to be tested for HIV, 4 were found to have recent HIV infections. 4/72 = 5.4%. 5.4% of 260 = 14. Underwhelming.
The nature of the goal-directed misinterpretation you were using here was actually easy to guess before I looked up the MMWR these figures come from.
Are you familiar with the concept of induction, Mark? If the literature you quote to support your position is shown, repeatedly, to be based on dodgy "facts" and/or dodgy "reasoning", sooner or later a rational person concludes that all the literature you quote to support your position will be dodgy.
Below are relevant quotes from the MMWR, <http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5326a1.htm>
"estimated 50,782 MSM living in San Francisco in 2001"
"During 1998--2002, the number of P&S syphilis cases among MSM in San Francisco increased from four to 260 "
"HIV incidence was lower (e.g., in 2002, incidence was 2.3% [95% CI = 1.0--3.5] at AHP and 3.3% [95% CI = 1.9--4.7] at SFCC),"
"HIV incidence was estimated by STARHS for men who had P&S syphilis diagnosed at SFCC in 2002 and 2003 and who accepted confidential HIV-antibody and STARHS testing. Of 74 men, 16 (22%) were HIV seropositive, and four (25%) of these had a recent HIV infection identified by STARHS; all four of these patients reported having had HIV-seronegative test results within the previous 2 years."
 Signature David Canzi
PaulKing - 18 Nov 2004 06:33 GMT My God you try to twist everything, no matter how clear, to fit your pathetic logic.
"They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men declined slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose by a factor of 20."
How much clearer can you get?
David Canzi -- non-mailable address - 18 Nov 2004 08:33 GMT >My God you try to twist everything, no matter how clear, to fit your >pathetic logic. If you were right and I was wrong, you would be able to quote what I said, and show which of my figures (taken directly from the MMWR) or calculations are wrong, instead of responding impotently with fact-free insults.
Try again, Oblio: <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=cnhbur%2463a%241%40rumours.uwaterloo.ca>
>"They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men declined >slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose by a >factor of 20." > >How much clearer can you get? The factor of 20 is unimpressive, because the larger figure it's based on is still too small to have a significant effect on the HIV statistics.
 Signature David Canzi
GMCarter - 18 Nov 2004 11:12 GMT On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:33:12 +0000 (UTC), dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address) wrote:
snip
>The factor of 20 is unimpressive, because the larger figure it's >based on is still too small to have a significant effect on the >HIV statistics. An interesting perspective on the relevance of the statistics. Thanks. Though I don't think anyone would argue that SF and NYC have BOTH seen substantial rises in syphilis rates.
The happy news is that this does not necessarily mean a concomitant increase in HIV. Syphilis is probably more easily acquired through unprotected oral sex. I know few people who "suck condoms." By contrast, HIV is not too likely to be transmitted through oral sex. So if syphilis goes up but unprotected anal intercourse remains low, there won't necessarily be an increase in HIV incidence. It's just a hypothesis.
However, there is still an alarmingly high incidence of HIV, particularly among younger gay men and African Americans. In part related to increased use of crystal meth. And otherwise fostered by the exaggerated notion that HIV is a manageable infection. It is, but not easily by any stretch.
George M. Carter
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 18 Nov 2004 18:09 GMT >On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:33:12 +0000 (UTC), >dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address) >wrote:
>Though I don't think anyone would argue that SF and NYC have BOTH seen >substantial rises in syphilis rates. Not matched by rises in HIV transmission, as has been the case over the past 2+ decades.
>Syphilis is probably more easily acquired through unprotected oral sex. Probably?
George Mary doesn't take valuable time away from posting to do the research.
>I know few people who "suck condoms." The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might expect from an aging gay man in the sea of the young and beautiful gay men that is New York.
Sucks.
Blackie
GMCarter - 19 Nov 2004 11:19 GMT snip
>The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might >expect from an aging gay man in the sea of the young and >beautiful gay men that is New York. LOL. Frod Show takes on another sock puppet persona. Hiya, Frod!
Speaking of aging, how old, fat and ugly are you anyway?
Love, George Mary
Nick Bennett - 20 Nov 2004 03:46 GMT > snip > >The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might > >expect from an aging gay man in the sea of the young and > >beautiful gay men that is New York. > > LOL. Frod Show takes on another sock puppet persona. Hiya, Frod! I was thinking the same thing...a disused anonymous account, familiar rhetoric and abuse... We might well have our favourite dissident back in the ranks!
Cheers
Bennett
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 22 Nov 2004 16:58 GMT >> snip >> >The missing operative word here is "personally", as one might [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >rhetoric and abuse... We might well have our favourite dissident back >in the ranks! Frod? Methinks not.
Dissident? When one considers that the "dissidents" are the ones in command of the science here, then the label applies.
Blackie
David Canzi -- non-mailable address - 22 Nov 2004 21:38 GMT >... Methinks not. Rene Descartes walks into a bar. The bartender asks him, "would you like something to drink?" "I think not," Descartes replies, then disappears.
 Signature David Canzi
GMCarter - 23 Nov 2004 11:49 GMT On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:38:53 +0000 (UTC), dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address) wrote:
>Rene Descartes walks into a bar. The bartender asks him, "would >you like something to drink?" "I think not," Descartes replies, >then disappears. LOL!! Best laugh of the day!!
George M. Cartesian
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 23 Nov 2004 16:03 GMT >On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:38:53 +0000 (UTC), >dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>you like something to drink?" "I think not," Descartes replies, >>then disappears. George Dubya Carter walks into a bar. The bartender asks him "would you like something to drink?" "How much will you pay me to try one of your cocktails", George Dubya inquires, as he greedily awaits the bartender's response...
Black Darkness (Schwartzenegger) - 18 Nov 2004 17:54 GMT On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:33:12 +0000 (UTC), dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable address) wrote:
>>"They found that in San Francisco, the HIV rates of gay men declined >>slightly between 1999 and 2002 even though the syphilis rate rose by a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >based on is still too small to have a significant effect on the >HIV statistics. Canzi Pants and the other drug company perverts of public relations employ are not permitted to engage in factual discourse - they are here to poison the waters.
Nonetheless, since the late 1970's the dissociation between HIV and syphilis infection rates (a marker for high-risk sexual behavior) has clearly demonstrated the difficulty in transmitting HIV.
The studies have been repeatedly published on this newsgroup, particularly when the discussions were about the HIV epidemic resulting from the CDC Hepatitis B vaccine human experiments targeting the gay bathhouses in the late 1970s-early 1980s.
The Hep-B vaccine-AIDS argument is clearly bolstered by the virtual absence of OIs no longer seen since the vaccine epidemic (e.g. Kaposi's sarcoma is rarely seen now - it was common in the 1980s).
As to the syphilis-HIV disconnect, over the years even Dr. Holzman has refused to engage in this little embarassment.
And who could blame him?
Blackie
DissidentSaint - 28 Nov 2004 03:59 GMT This is what ACT-UP/SF and David Pasquarelli were saying a few years back which resulted in their being jailed as political prisoners. It seems they proven right again and that statistical or selective bias in the sample was due to the increase in numbers of gay men being tested. Like David, I am calling out homophobia among AIDS Dissidents and AIDS Apologists.
Kelly Jon Landis
Smart 'Bugs' or Smart Bombs? The Infectious Model of 'AIDS' Does Discriminate And Selectively Biases Gay Men [LINK T DISCUSSION THREAD ON ANOTHER FORUM, HIV/AIDS ALTERNATIVE VIEWS] http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=619.1
SAN FRANCISCO -- Gay activists, angered over unverified health department claims of a "big syphilis spike" allegedly driven by gay internet chat rooms, today urged America Online (AOL) to resist pressure from government health officials to post STD warnings exclusively in cyberspots where homosexual men meet. ACT UP members called the posting plan the "bigoted brainchild" of Dr. Jeffrey Klausner, Director of San Francisco's STD Prevention Unit, and warned that it is a frightening measure to invade homosexual men's privacy online and undermine the gay male community's self-esteem and safety. To counter the proposed AOL posting plan, activists demanded the immediate resignation of Klausner calling him "the gay community's public enemy #1."
"Where is the evidence of this alleged syphilis increase and the proof that, if it exists at all, gay chat rooms are to blame?" asked ACT UP member David Pasquarelli. "Klausner stammers on endlessly about gay sex spreading disease and death without any verifiable numbers published in peer-reviewed studies. It's called sexual scapegoating and San Francisco's gay male community has had enough. Jeffrey Klausner must go!"
ACT UP San Francisco members demand that:
1) America Online refrain from singling out gay men and targeting them with STD warnings. Furthermore, AOL must refuse to be pressured into violating patron privacy by being used as a health department vehicle to harass gay subscribers.
2) The San Francisco Department of Public Health must submit all STD and AIDS numbers to an independent entity that verifies statistics and interprets their analysis before releasing them to the media. Results of the independent statistical analysis will be presented to the gay community through a fair and balanced public forum prior to any comments made to the press by public health officials.
3) The San Francisco Department of Public Health must immediately terminate Dr. Jeffrey Klausner's employment for engaging in ongoing homophobic actions that compromise the self-esteem and safety of the gay community. His conduct violates the department's mission to promote community health by compromising the gay community's psychological well-being. The health department's harassment of gays, under Klausner's leadership, is a violation of the city's human rights and anti-discrimination ordinances.
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ACT UP members point out that in 1999 the San Francisco Department of Public Health broadcast alarmist full-page ads in the gay press featuring pictures of ticking time bombs and scary headlines about an out-of-control syphilis outbreak. However, upon investigation, activists discovered that the statistics showed syphilis at its lowest rates ever with steep declines in the number of positive results per tests administered. ACT UP alleged that DPH was playing a deceptive numbers game by concealing that they drastically increased syphilis screening and targeted gay men to cook up higher numbers for STD and AIDS funding purposes.
Like a bad Halloween repeat, the syphilis scare resurfaced this week in an October 26, 2001 article by Christopher Heredia of the San Francisco Chronicle entitled "Big spike in cases of syphilis in S.F." As in the past, no numbers of tests administered were provided to the public in order to put into perspective the number of syphilis-positive results. More frightening, however, were demands by Dr. Klausner for America Online to institute a radically anti-gay policy of posting intrusive STD warnings exclusively in gay chat rooms.
ACT UP members warn that following Klausner's bogus 1999 syphilis scare, homophobic harassment of gay America Online chat rooms skyrocketed ("Net syphilis issue spurs hate mail," August 26, 1999, San Francisco Examiner)
"We're sick of the Department of Homophobia demonizing our most intimate moments as diseased and deadly in order to drum up more government funding," commented an angry Todd Swindell of ACT UP. "The end result of their alarmist actions is always the same: more anti-gay harassment and violence. We're not going to stand for it anymore!"
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San Francisco Examiner August 26, 1999
Net syphilis issue spurs hate mail ----- By Ilene Lelchuk of the Examiner Staff
An Internet chat room for gay men was bombarded with hate mail following media reports that health officials traced a syphilis outbreak to people who met there.
Users of the America Online chat room SFM4M -- San Francisco Men 4 Men -- who logged on Wednesday said they received anti-gay messages filled with profanity and death threats.
"I logged on at 7 a.m. and rather than have a nervous breakdown I logged off," said Jay, who declined to give his full name because he feared more harassment.
Jay, a 34-year-old Web page designer in San Francisco, said he forwarded the worst messages to AOL officials.
AOL spokesman Rich D'Amato, who was not aware of the on-screen attacks, said AOL has a Community Action Team that can monitor problems in chat rooms. "Any kind of personal or community-directed harassment would violate AOL's terms of service," D'Amato said.
The flood of anti-gay messages followed publicity surrounding the San Francisco Health Department's attempt to track a disease through cyberspace for the first time. The department launched its computer-age campaign after a few men tested positive for syphilis and told health officials that they met their last partners in SFM4M.
The Health Department wanted to warn other chat room users about the syphilis cases, but the participants are virtually anonymous and known only by their screen personas. AOL, following its strict privacy policy, declined to release names, phone numbers or addresses without a court order.
So health officials paired with PlanetOut, the largest online service for gays, lesbians and bisexuals. PlanetOut has spent the last three weeks in the chat room warning users about the outbreak.
And their campaign is working, said Jeffrey Klausner, director of the Health Department's sexually transmitted diseases division. The number of men who visit city clinics for testing has doubled.
Eight men who met their recent sex partners in SFM4M tested positive for syphilis. A ninth infected man said he met his partners on an Internet relay chat room, or IRC.
Three of the San Francisco men also reported that they tested HIV positive, Klausner said.
Although the number of cases is small so far, the implications are big. Klausner said a syphilis outbreak could have a major impact on San Francisco's gay community because the disease causes genital sores, which increase the victim's likelihood of contracting and spreading HIV.
In the SFM4M chat room Wednesday, visitors discussed the Health Department's campaign, the resulting publicity and the flood of homophobic on-screen attacks.
"It's kinda sad that (the chat room) has that bad rep now and (the publicity) really makes gay people look like dogs in heat," wrote one man who declined to identify himself.
Tom Rielly, founder of PlanetOut, said that he isn't surprised by the anti-gay messages now hitting the chat room. "But I don't buy into the argument that because (the public health campaign) might shed an unfavorable light on the gay community that you shouldn't talk about it all," Rielly said.
Among Rielly's critics are David Pasquarelli of Act Up San Francisco, whose group questions whether HIV causes AIDS. ACT UP placed an ad last week in the Bay Area Reporter warning that the "syphilis scare is an anti-gay lie" and that a handful of cases doesn't constitute an outbreak.
"Their alarmism is demonizing gay sex . . . ultimately fueling violence against gay men," Pasquarelli said.
But Klausner defended his campaign. "The role of the Health Department is to use information it has to protect the health of the public," Klausner said. "We weigh very seriously the decisions to issue health alerts to medical providers and to the community at large."
Cases of syphilis -- a bacterial infection easily treated with antibiotics when detected early -- are at an all-time national low. In fact, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention targeted the disease for elimination.
In San Francisco, 17 cases of recent infection were reported during the first six months of 1999, compared to 25 cases reported during the same period in 1998.
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ACT UP San Francisco 1884 Market Street * San Francisco, California 94102 Phone: (415) 864-6686 * Fax: (415) 864-6687 * www.actupsf.com
Jason Voorhees - 19 Nov 2004 18:34 GMT "PaulKing" <aimulti@aimultimedia.com> wrote...
> Syphilis Outbreak Hasn't Led to HIV > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In fact, researchers said, the number of new HIV cases declined slightly > in both cities. But that might be because that population group is already saturated with HIV. If everyone in the group already has HIV, then it no surprise to see no increase in "new infections" as the article reports. I assume that gay men start out with HIV then add diseases over time - the outbreak of syphilis is just the latest fad. I also don't know how accurate the numbers are if those being tested consent to a syphilis test but not an HIV test. Virtually every state has some sort of law requiring explicit consent before testing for HIV - even in cases such as health care workers getting stuck by needles and aren't allowed to force the patient to be tested - so it is quite possible that many of the gay men who consented to be tested for syphilis (which has obvious painful symptoms) and did not consent to an HIV test (ignorance is bliss when it comes to painless HIV).
PaulKing - 27 Nov 2004 11:12 GMT "But that might be because that population group is already saturated with HIV."
If America is 'saturated' then you are admitting that the African figures are pure nonsense.
How does a population reach saturation at anything below 100% infection?
Talk about grasping at straws to support a flawed hypothesis.
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