Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / October 2004
Sex with a hooker vs. HIV infection
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?_? - 16 Oct 2004 20:27 GMT Hi,
I had sex today with a hooker (not one of those standing on the street but a 19 y.o. girl met at an Internet chat) - she says she's been doing it for 8 months - thus my question: what are the odds that I have got the rest of my life f***ed? The penetration was with condom (it did not break nor slip), yet the oral was not... I would also like to take a tes, yet I have to wait a bit for that, ain't I? (at least here in Poland, as we are waaaaay behind the latest achievments ;-) )
TIA
GMCarter - 17 Oct 2004 10:09 GMT >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >a bit for that, ain't I? (at least here in Poland, as we are waaaaay behind >the latest achievments ;-) ) There is no way to know, though from what you describe, it seems unlikely. Oral sex is a low risk. Also just because she was a sex worker does not mean she is necessarily HIV+.
Best bet is to wait about 4-6 weeks and get a test for HIV.
Meantime, you can get tested for other sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis or gonorrhea, if these are of concern.
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 18 Oct 2004 06:09 GMT Prostitutes are not even included in the CDC 'high risks' groups.
________
The 'Prostitute' Paradox
If "AIDS" ("HIV") was sexually transmitted, we should find it in sex-trade workers. The following references, including five studies published in prestigious scientific journals, demonstrate NO sexual transmission.
In this study, the authors estimated overall and cause-specific mortality among prostitute women. They recorded information on prostitute women identified by police and health department surveillance in Colorado Springs, Colorado, from 1967 to 1999. The authors assessed cause-specific mortality in this open cohort of 1,969 women [...]
Violence and drug use were the predominant causes of death, both during periods of prostitution and during the whole observation period. [...]
Deaths from acquired immunodeficiency syndrome occurred exclusively among prostitutes who admitted to injecting drug use or were inferred to have a history of it.
Potterat J J et al. Mortality in a Long-term Open Cohort of Prostitute Women. Am J Epidemiol 2004;159:778-785.
During a 36-month period, a multidisciplinary team manned a van that visited the major location of open prostitution in the Tel Aviv area [...]
All 128 females who did not admit to drug abuse were seronegative.
A thorough search of recent literature fail to demonstrate unequivocal seropositivity among British, French, German, Italian, or Dutch prostitutes without drug histories.
Modan, B et al. Prevalence of HIV antibodies in transsexual and female prostitutes, American Journal of Public Health. 1992;82(4):590-592.
Michael Wright also report this study in A Former AIDS Researcher Has Second Thoughts, part one: Manufacturing the AIDS Scare.
In order to determine whether prostitutes operating outside of areas of high drug abuse have equally elevated rates of infection, 354 prostitutes were surveyed in Tijuana, Mexico [...]
None of the 354 [blood] samples [...] was positive for HIV-1 or HIV-2[…]
Condoms were used [...] for less than half of their sexual contacts. Only 4 female prostitutes (1%) admitted to ever having abused intravenous drugs.
Infection with HIV was not found in this prostitute population despite the close proximity to neighboring San Diego, CA, which has a high incidence of diagnosed cases of AIDS, and to Los Angeles, which has a reported 4% prevalence of HIV infection in prostitutes.
Hyams KC et al. HIV infection in a non-drug abusing prostitute population. Scandinavian Journal of Infectious Diseases. 1989;21(3):353-4.
David Crowe also report this study in Referenced Quotes about Transmission of HIV and AIDS. 448 licensed female prostitutes in Nuremburg, West Germany, were studied in March and April 1986. No prostitute tested was anti-HIV positive [...] they had been prostitutes for 77 months on average [...]
The mean number of clients was 13 per week [...]
This heterosexually very active group of women has remained free from HIV infection.
Smith GL, Smith KF. Lack of HIV infection and condom use in licensed prostitutes. Lancet. 1986;1392. In September, 1985, we collected 56 samples of blood in the rue Saint-Denis, the most notorious street in Paris for prostitution. [...]
No prostitute was seropositive. These women, aged 18-60 have sexual intercourse 15-25 times daily and do not routinely use protection. Altough contracting AIDS is greatly feared by these women, only 15 used condoms with all their customers.
[...] none of the Paris prostitute was a drug addict. Brenky-Faudeux D, Fribourg-Blanc A. HTLV-III antibody in prostitutes. Lancet. 1985;2:1424.
The same results were reported from Amsterdam, one of the world's centers of legalized prostitution. When several hundred non-drug using prostitutes were studied, investigators found no HIV-positive women even though they averaged more than 200 clients per year
Coutinho RA, van der Helm TH. [No indications for LAV/HTLV-III in non-drug-using prostitutes in Amsterdam]. Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd, 1986;130(11):508. As reported by David W. Rasnick, Ph.D., in a letter published by the British Medical Journal Sex has nothing to do with AIDS.
Of course, sex-trade workers taking hard drugs are more likely to become sick, it has nothing to do with "HIV" or "AIDS". Strong drugs have a proven immune suppressive effect, and intravenous drugs injections often carry some foreign proteins, adding an extra burden on the immune system.
GMCarter - 18 Oct 2004 12:39 GMT >Prostitutes are not even included in the CDC 'high risks' groups. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >workers. The following references, including five studies published in >prestigious scientific journals, demonstrate NO sexual transmission. That doesn't mean there wasn't any. Just that they didn't look for it.
I'm putting the citation first. The abstract is below it. The period was 1967 to 1999, a 32-year period. HIV disease and AIDS began to be seen in 1981.
>Potterat J J et al. Mortality in a Long-term Open Cohort of Prostitute >Women. Am J Epidemiol 2004;159:778-785. In this study, the authors estimated overall and cause-specific mortality among prostitute women. They recorded information on prostitute women identified by police and health department surveillance in Colorado Springs, Colorado, from 1967 to 1999. The authors assessed cause-specific mortality in this open cohort of 1,969 women using the Social Security Death Index and the National Death Index, augmented by individual investigations. They identified 117 definite or probable deaths and had sufficient information on 100 to calculate a crude mortality rate (CMR) of 391 per 100,000 (95% confidence interval (CI): 314, 471). In comparison with the general population, the standardized mortality ratio (SMR), adjusted for age and race, was 1.9 (95% CI: 1.5, 2.3). For the period of presumed active prostitution only, the CMR was 459 per 100,000 (95% CI: 246, 695) and the SMR was 5.9 (95% CI: 3.2, 9.0). Violence and drug use were the predominant causes of death, both during periods of prostitution and during the whole observation period. The CMR for death by homicide among active prostitutes was 229 per 100,000 (95% CI: 79, 378), and the SMR was 17.7 (95% CI: 6.2, 29.3). Deaths from acquired immunodeficiency syndrome occurred exclusively among prostitutes who admitted to injecting drug use or were inferred to have a history of it.
snip
>A thorough search of recent literature fail to demonstrate unequivocal >seropositivity among British, French, German, Italian, or Dutch >prostitutes without drug histories. This may be the case as drug users may be less apt to protect themselves and/or more likely to relinquish the right to safer sex and the john using a condom in order to obtain drugs. Or they may share needles which enhance the risk of infection. Other sex workers who are not injecting are more likely to negotiate safer sex practices.
There's plenty more studies than just these couple that this person cherry-picked and threw his own convenient spin on. The one below shows that HIV is one of the higher incidence infections in the cohort evaluated among various STDs.
But still, relatively low. Many sex workers realize the risks of HIV disease and have made efforts to respond. In some cultures, this has resulted in changes in stupid laws against this old practice. In Calcutta in India, the Sonagachi group of sex workers has organized and the incidence of HIV has dropped considerably. By contrast, in Mumbai, where sex workers are persecuted by police and the judicial system, the incidence is much higher.
As to the frequency of "johns" becoming infected (as opposed to being the ones who infect the sex workers), I think such a study would be hard to do. But the last abstract below shows it is not impossible to at least interview them.
George M. Carter
** Gutierrez M, Tajada P, Alvarez A, De Julian R, Baquero M, Soriano V, Holguin A. Prevalence of HIV-1 non-B subtypes, syphilis, HTLV, and hepatitis B and C viruses among immigrant sex workers in Madrid, Spain. J Med Virol. 2004 Oct 13;74(4):521-527 [Epub ahead of print]
Microbiology Unit, Hospital Carlos III, Madrid, Spain.
Sexually transmitted disease (STD) remains a major public health challenge in developed countries, exacerbated by the advent of the HIV epidemic. The objectives of this study were to assess the prevalence of serological markers of syphilis, HIV-1/2, HTLV-I/II, HBV, and HCV infections among immigrant sex workers in Madrid, Spain and to characterize the HIV-1 variants in seropositive individuals. Sera from 762 immigrant commercial sex workers (75.3% from sub-Saharan Africa, 18.2% from South America, and 6.4% from Eastern Europe) were collected between 1998 and 2003 in Madrid and examined. Antibody detection was performed by screening assays (RPR, ELISAs) and confirmed by FTA-Abs, LIAs and Western-blot tests. HIV-1 subtyping was carried out by phylogenetic analyses of the protease and envelope genes. Antibodies to HIV-1 were found in 5.2%, while 3.5% tested positive for HBsAg, 3% for syphilis antibodies, 0.8% for HCV antibodies, and 0.2% for HTLV-I antibodies. None were reactive for HIV-2 or HTLV-II antibodies. HIV-1 seroprevalence among Africans and Ecuadorians was 4.5 and 10.9%, respectively. All HIV-1 seropositive Ecuadorians were transsexual men, and 28.6% had active syphilis infection. Up to 80% of HIV-1 positive specimens were characterized as non-B subtypes, with subtypes G, A, and G/A recombinants being the most frequent among African individuals. In contrast, South Americans with HIV-1 infection carried exclusively subtype B variants. A relatively high proportion of immigrant sex workers in Madrid were infected with HIV-1 and syphilis, whereas infections with hepatitis viruses or HTLV were uncommon. J. Med. Virol. 74:521-527, 2004. (c) 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
** Larsen MM, Sartie MT, Musa T, Casey SE, Tommy J, Saldinger M. Changes in HIV/AIDS/STI knowledge, attitudes and practices among commercial sex workers and military forces in Port Loko, Sierra Leone. Disasters. 2004 Sep;28(3):239-254.
Heilbrunn Department of Population and Family Health, Mailman School of Public Health, Columbia University, 60 Haven Avenue B-3, New York, New York 10032, USA. ml2223@columbia.edu
Sierra Leone suffered from 11 years of civil war (1991-2002) resulting in tens of thousands of deaths and mutilations together with massive population displacement. In 2001, ARC International, Sierra Leone conducted a baseline survey of 201 commercial sex workers (CSWs) and 202 military respondents on the knowledge, attitudes and practices surrounding HIV/AIDS and STIs in Port Loko, Sierra Leone. In 2003, a comparable post-intervention survey of 202 CSWs and 205 military respondents was performed. Comparison of baseline and post-intervention results showed that HIV/AIDS knowledge increased among both groups, with those able to name three effective means of avoiding AIDS increasing from 5 per cent to 70 per cent among CSWs, and 11 to 75 per cent among the military. Reported condom use during last sex increased among CSWs from 38 to 68 per cent and among military from 39 to 68 per cent. These results demonstrate that, despite the challenges inherent in a post-conflict country, good-quality AIDS-prevention programmes can be effective.
** Wee S, Barrett ME, Lian WM, Jayabaskar T, Chan KW. Determinants of inconsistent condom use with female sex workers among men attending the STD clinic in Singapore. Sex Transm Infect. 2004 Aug;80(4):310-314.
Department of Community, Occupational and Family Medicine (MD3), Faculty of Medicine, National University of Singapore, 16 Medical Drive, Singapore 117597. cmewees@nus.edu.sg
BACKGROUND/ OBJECTIVES: Female sex workers and their male clients have been identified as risk groups for the transmission of STDs and HIV. Behavioural interventions targeting clients need to address inconsistent condom use among them. The aim of the study is to assess the sociodemographic, behavioural, and psychological factors associated with inconsistent condom use among clients of sex workers. METHODS: 229 male patients attending the STD clinic in Singapore who reported paying for sex in the previous 6 months were interviewed. Response rate was 91%. RESULTS: Overall, 45% used condoms inconsistently; these clients were more likely to have poor STD knowledge, visit sex workers five or more times in the past 6 months, have lower self efficacy, less favourable social norms for condom use, and more likely to forget condom use when intoxicated (alcohol impaired decision making). CONCLUSIONS: Behavioural interventions for clients need to improve STD/HIV transmission knowledge and focus on improving client's self efficacy in using condoms.
PaulKing - 18 Oct 2004 06:10 GMT Sex And HIV: Behaviour-Change Trial Shows No Link The East African (Nairobi) March 17, 2003 Posted to the web March 19, 2003
By Paul Redfern, Special Correspondent Nairobi A UK funded trial aimed at reducing the spread of Aids in Uganda by modifying sexual behaviour appears to have had little discernible effect.
The trial, carried out on around 15,000 people in the Masaka region, involved distributing condoms, treating around 12,000 victims of sexually transmitted diseases and counselling.
However, while the trial led to a marked change in sexual behavioural patterns, with the proportion reporting causal sexual partners falling from around 35 per cent to 15 per cent, there was no noticeable fall in the number of new cases of HIV infection, although there was a significant reduction in sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis and gonorrhoea.
The trial results, which were reported in the British medical journal The Lancet, have already aroused some controversy.
The team leader of the trial, Dr Anatoli Kamalai, acknowledged that there was "no measurable reduction" in HIV incidence with "no hint of even a small effect."
http://allafrica.com/stories/200303190482.html http://allafrica.com/stories/printable/200303190482.html
GMCarter - 18 Oct 2004 12:40 GMT >Sex And HIV: Behaviour-Change Trial Shows No Link >The East African (Nairobi) Repeated posting responded to previously. Recycled bullshit is still bullshit.
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 18 Oct 2004 22:56 GMT You are the only source of BS around here.
GMCarter - 18 Oct 2004 13:05 GMT Surratt HL, Inciardi JA. HIV risk, seropositivity and predictors of infection among homeless and non-homeless women sex workers in Miami, Florida, USA. AIDS Care. 2004 Jul;16(5):594-604.
Center for Drug and Alcohol Studies, University of Delaware, Coral Gables, FL 33134, USA. HSurratt@udel.edu
Although homelessness has frequently been associated with substance abuse, and has been established as a predictor of HIV risk among substance abusers, little is known about the impact of homelessness on HIV risk among female sex workers. This analysis investigated the contribution of homelessness to sexual risk taking among a sample of 485 female sex workers recruited into an HIV prevention programme in Miami, Florida, 41.6% of whom considered themselves to be currently homeless. Findings indicated that in comparison to non-homeless sex workers, significantly more homeless sex workers were daily users of alcohol and crack, and their past month sex work reflected significantly more frequent vaginal and oral sex acts, higher levels of unprotected vaginal sex and more numerous sexual activities while 'high' on drugs. At the same time, a significantly greater proportion of homeless sex workers encountered customers that refused to use condoms than did the non-homeless sex workers. There were no significant differences in HIV seropositivity between the homeless and non-homeless women (22.5 and 24.9%, respectively), primarily because the majority of the women in the study cycled in and out of homelessness.
PaulKing - 18 Oct 2004 22:57 GMT Once again we see that drug abuse, poor diet and stress are the cause of 'AIDS' NOT some wonder virus.
Thanks for making the point.
Death - 19 Oct 2004 00:04 GMT "PaulKing" <aimulti@aimultimedia.com> wrote in message
> Once again we see that drug abuse, poor diet and stress are the cause of > 'AIDS' NOT some wonder virus. I agree with you. Scientist /medical professionals should stop looking for a cure for the aids virus. A waste of time and money.
RamRod Sword of Baal - 19 Oct 2004 00:54 GMT > "PaulKing" <aimulti@aimultimedia.com> wrote in message >> Once again we see that drug abuse, poor diet and stress are the cause of >> 'AIDS' NOT some wonder virus.
> I agree with you. Scientist /medical professionals should stop looking for > a > cure for the aids virus. A waste of time and money. It would seem that you did not get your annual nookie last night, and are now sour on the world today........
You might try this........
It came in from a friend this morning...........
I never quite figured out why the sexual urge of men & women differ so
much. And I never have figured out the whole Venus and Mars thing.
I have never figured out why men think with their head and women
with their heart. I have never figured out why the sexual desire gene
gets
thrown into a state of turmoil, when it hears the words "I do."
FOR EXAMPLE:
One evening last week, my wife and I were getting into bed. Well,
the passion starts to heat up, and she eventually says "I don't
feel
like it, I just want you to hold me."
I said "WHAT????!!! What was that?!"
So she says the words that every husband on the planet dreads to
hear..."You're just not in touch with my emotional needs as a
woman
enough for me to satisfy your physical needs as a man."
She responded to my puzzled look by saying, "Can't you just love
me
for who I am and not what I do for you in the bedroom?"
Realizing that nothing was going to happen that night I went to
sleep. The very next day I opted to take the day off of work to
spend time with her. We went out to a nice lunch and then went
shopping at a big, big unnamed dept. store. I walked around with
her
while she tried on several different very expensive outfits. She
couldn't decide which one to take so I told her we'll just buy
them
all. She wanted new shoes to compliment her new clothes, so I said
lets get a pair for each outfit. We went on to the jewelry dept.
where she picked out a pair of diamond earrings.
Let me tell you...she was so excited. She must have thought I was
one wave short of a shipwreck. I started to think she was testing
me
because she asked for a tennis bracelet when she doesn't even know
how to play tennis.
I think I threw her for a loop when I said, "That's fine, honey."
She was almost nearing sexual satisfaction from all of the excitement.
Smiling with excited anticipation she finally said, "I think this is
all dear, let's go to the cashier".
I could hardly contain myself when I blurted out, "No honey, I
don't feel like it."
Her face just went completely blank as her jaw dropped with a
baffled WHAT???!!!"
I then said, "Really honey! I just want you to HOLD this stuff for
awhile.. You're just not in touch with my financial needs as a man
enough for me to satisfy your shopping needs as a woman."
And just when she had this look like she was going to kill me I
added, "Why can't you just love me for who I am and not for the
things I buy you?"
Apparently I'm not having sex tonight either.
______________
PaulKing - 19 Oct 2004 01:11 GMT If there were an AIDS virus finding a cure would make sense.
There is no such virus, just a $300,000,000 dollar business.
As there is no possibility of a cure for a myth the profits are in no danger.
A really first rate scam.
Death - 19 Oct 2004 04:07 GMT "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRod Sword of Baal @truthonly.com> wrote in message
> "Death" <Death@yourdoor.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It would seem that you did not get your annual nookie last night, and are > now sour on the world today........ If I had been the one to claim aids is from stress and not a virus you would have reacted like your dick was stuck in the neighborhood goat.
It is good to see sarcasm go over your head. That would be, what ?, a little below waist high ?
RamRod Sword of Baal - 19 Oct 2004 17:38 GMT > "RamRod Sword of Baal" <RamRod Sword of Baal @truthonly.com> wrote in > message [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It is good to see sarcasm go over your head. > That would be, what ?, a little below waist high ? Oh I replied in kind, did you not understand that, too subtle for you?
PaulKing - 19 Oct 2004 01:08 GMT You cannot cure a myth except with truth.
Thanks for you support.
GMCarter - 19 Oct 2004 12:56 GMT >Once again we see that drug abuse, poor diet and stress are the cause of >'AIDS' NOT some wonder virus. They contribute to the acquisition of HIV. They may also contribute to the progression of the disease to AIDS. Individually and collectively, substance use, poor diet and stress do not cause a person's CD4 count to plummet to the point where they get sick from Pneumocystis jirovecii or fulminant Kaposi's sarcoma.
There is no evidence whatsoever and plenty of common sense to tell you that the conditions you've listed do not cause AIDS. Of course, they SHOULD be addressed in this world! No question. HIV+ or not.
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 19 Oct 2004 22:03 GMT Kaposi's sarcoma is a tumor and to claim it is the result of immune suppression is utter ('AIDS') madness.
Starvation can indeed cause total failure of the immune system. The vast majority of Jews in the Death Camps died from opportunistic diseases resulting from immune suppression caused by starvation NOT ZycloneB..
You really do talk a load of nonsense Mr. Carter.
Gary Stein - 19 Oct 2004 22:31 GMT > Kaposi's sarcoma is a tumor and to claim it is the result of immune > suppression is utter ('AIDS') madness. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You really do talk a load of nonsense Mr. Carter. You are such an utter fool Paul how in the heck do you find your way home at night? There is a tremendous difference between starvation and immune suppression. During starvation the human body consumes it's own tissues in an attempt to prolong life until food is again available. The destruction to the bodies functions caused by this is distinct and unique to starvation.
The fact that prisoners in prison camps die of diseases has more to do with inadequate sanitation, overcrowding, and lack of medical care then it does to starvation. The newly arrived succumb to disease as do those poor starving souls that preceded them to the camps. This fact applies to the German extermination camps and to Andersonville. Though with out checking the facts I do not know if more succumbed to disease, to starvation, were worked to death or were killed outright.
Gary Stein
GMCarter - 20 Oct 2004 10:21 GMT >Kaposi's sarcoma is a tumor and to claim it is the result of immune >suppression is utter ('AIDS') madness. It's a sarcoma. KS results from infection with human herpes 8. Elderly men, whose immune systems aren't optimum, get a very mild form. When young gay men with HIV and HHV-8 got it, it was horrific. Happily, it doesn't happen so much.
>Starvation can indeed cause total failure of the immune system. The vast >majority of Jews in the Death Camps died from opportunistic diseases >resulting from immune suppression caused by starvation NOT ZycloneB.. First of all, the majority of humans with HIV do not live in death camps. Second of all, I don't buy this statement of yours at all. Maybe you think the holocaust didn't happen either?
>You really do talk a load of nonsense Mr. Carter. Dearest, that I respond to you at all should fill your heart with happiiness. It is an opportunity for you to grow up before you die of sheer ignorance.
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 19 Oct 2004 22:06 GMT P.S. The same was trure of Andersonville prison camp in the American Civil War. No ZycloneB there, just poor sanitation and starvation.
To claim ONLY 'HIV' causes immune suppression at a fatal level is nonsense beyond belief.
David Canzi -- non-mailable address - 20 Oct 2004 04:40 GMT >To claim ONLY 'HIV' causes immune suppression at a fatal level is nonsense >beyond belief. Who's been claiming that?
 Signature David Canzi
GMCarter - 20 Oct 2004 10:23 GMT >P.S. The same was trure of Andersonville prison camp in the American Civil >War. No ZycloneB there, just poor sanitation and starvation. > >To claim ONLY 'HIV' causes immune suppression at a fatal level is nonsense >beyond belief. Again, most people with HIV aren't living in a prison camp. And no, I never claimed that ONLY HIV causes immune suppression.
But there are very few data showing a selective depletion of CD4 cells in the condition of CD4 count. Cunningham-Rundles did some interesting work showing parallels in immune defects with what happens in HIV disease in the condition of protein-calorie malnutrition. But that is NOT identical to AIDS. And feeding people helps offset that and recovery occurs. HIV disease IS affected by nutritional status and can be offset by it. But it is NOT cured by it and CD4 count declines still occur, albeit at a slower level when people use a multivitamin, for example.
George M. Carter
PaulKing - 22 Oct 2004 06:47 GMT "But it is NOT cured by it"
How could you possibly cure a myth with food? All you cure is the immune suppression.
Now you are left with the results of worthless test but will remain alive and well.
GMCarter - 22 Oct 2004 10:36 GMT >"But it is NOT cured by it" > >How could you possibly cure a myth with food? All you cure is the immune >suppression. Stupid rhetorical tricks. Of course, myths may not be cured with food. However, personal myths like "HIV is harmless" or "HIV does not exist" may be fatal. HIV doesn't really give a sh.t what fantasy you cook up.
>Now you are left with the results of worthless test but will remain alive >and well. Sadly, this is not the case. If nutritional repletion alone were adequate to prevent the development of AIDS, I'd have a lot more friends still alive. It is a good and important part of care but does not cure HIV disease.
George M. Carter
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