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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / AIDS / September 2004Bushit repugnicanism
I've known and respected the thoughts and philosophies of some Republicans over the years. There used to be a great cry of "fiscal responsibility" that has long since died. Subsumed in the hungry maw of the corporate leaders whose lobbiests have wrested control of America from us, its citizens. The current crop of quasi-fascist, lying, jackbooted thugs have played the media, a pathetic lapdog to right wing extremism which has utterly abandoned all principles of journalism and journalistic integrity, are perhaps representative of the worst administration in US history. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz (Perle), Rove, Powell. Not least for destroying healthcare and the pathetic Slush Fund for Pharma Medicare Act. We continue to spend 14% of GDP on healthcare while 43+ million of us are uninsured. Millions more uninsured and reeling under healthcare costs. Businesses "outsourcing" for cheap labor -- and to avoid paying healthcare and in general doing everything possible to avoid paying healthcare and out-of-pocket expenses go up. It's not "corporate america" : corporations are NOT individuals. It IS individuals. Like Enron's Ken Lay. Like Abbott's CEO, Miles White. These people are the INDIVIDUALS who run corporations who make decisions that they know cause suffering and death so that they may profit enormously. They brought America to war on lies. Countless thousands have been killed or horribly injured and mutilated. Many children among them. Clinton is impeached for lying about an affair. But Bush and his administration's lies cause untold death and suffering. AND they bungled it to the point that Iraq is an horrific mess where BILLIONS of dollars are poured in and nothing changes. Who gets all that money? Bechtel? Halliburton? CEOs? Cheney? The Bush family? I believe Bush and his administration should be arrested for TREASON. For destroying America. For letting the terrorists win with garbage like the so-called "Patriot Act." I believe THEY should face the death penalty they so dearly love. George M. Carter ** > Things you have to believe to be a Republican today: > > Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad > guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy > when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when > Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion. > > Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is > communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital > to a spirit of international harmony. > > The United States should get out of the United > Nations, and our highest national priority is > enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq. > > A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her > own body, but multi-national corporations can make > decisions affecting all mankind without regulation. > > Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of > homosexuals and Hillary Clinton. > > The best way to improve military morale is to praise > the troops in speeches while slashing veterans' > benefits and combat pay. > > If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents > won't have sex. > > A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our > long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and > money. > > Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. > Providing health care to all Americans is socialism. > > HMOs and insurance companies have the best interests > of the public at heart. > > Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk > science, but creationism should be taught in > schools. > > A president lying about an extramarital affair is a > impeachable > offense. > > A president lying to enlist support for a war in > which thousands die is solid defense policy. > > Government should limit itself to the powers named > in the Constitution, which include banning gay > marriages and censoring the Internet. > > The public has a right to know about Hillary's > cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is > none of our business. > > Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, > unless you're a > conservative radio host. Then it's an illness, and > you need our prayers for your recovery. > > You support states' rights, which means Attorney > General John Ashcroft can tell states what local > voter initiatives they have the right to adopt. > > What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital > national interest, but what Bush did in the '80s is > irrelevant. > > Feel free to pass this on. > If you don't send it to at least 10 other people, > we're likely to be stuck with Bush for 4 more years. > > > Friends don't let friends vote Republican. humbubba@smart.net >I've known and respected the thoughts and philosophies of some >Republicans over the years. There used to be a great cry of "fiscal [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >perhaps representative of the worst administration in US history. >Bush, Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz (Perle), Rove, Powell. The Village People. Add Rumsfeld and so on for a dozen. A satire of machismo. I'm Rick Hohensee, and I created this message... @$%*%*%$$@*@$*@*@###* ##############* ##*########## __Y_Y_______Y_____ ###*#####*## | | **#*#*#*** | | ######*#**# | | ######***# | | @*@***@**@ | s | #*##*#*#*# | $ $ |$ #@&*@### | 000XXXXXXXX$%XH%*#*# | x XHHXXXXXXXXXX { | XXXX | 1 | | | | ##### | | ######### | | ############# | Y | ################## | ####################### | ######################## | ######################### H_ | ############################# \ | ################################ | l | ################################# | | ################################### ---\ | #################################### _______ _____ | ##################################### ___________ | #################################### ___ ################################## ############################## __________ ############################ | ###################### |_____________ | ####################### | | | ######################## | | _______|___ ######*#*#**############ | ******#*******######### | ################# | | "The Vision Thing", original ASCII-art by Rick (Richard Allen) Hohensee independant candidate for President > I've known and respected the thoughts and philosophies of some > Republicans over the years. There used to be a great cry of "fiscal [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > George M. Carter NARAL is backing Kerry, but I am still leery of voting for him because of his wife's involvement with groups who are Anti-Choice. The problem is GMC, I don't want to vote for someone who is anti-choice and I don't want to split the vote by voting for someone who isn't a mainstream party candidate. hoof > ** > > Things you have to believe to be a Republican today: [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > > > Friends don't let friends vote Republican.  Signature{ Disclaimer: Non Existent words contained within this poast were created in response to the Paperwork Reduction Act.} {If you have a problem with that, take it to the Environmentalists Complaint Dept.} [NOTE: It has come to my attention that water pressure booster pumps are available to city dwellers. Because of this new development, notify your local Environmentalist Complaint Dept. to begin a campaign to *ban* the sale of these pumps to those living within a municipality. (They don't need more water pressure just so their sprinklers can run water down the sewers.)] The above is a public service announcement from the Committee for *Responsible* Use of Water Pressure Booster Pumps.] A Free Thinker. snip... >NARAL is backing Kerry, but I am still leery of voting for him because >of his wife's involvement with groups who are Anti-Choice. >The problem is GMC, I don't want to vote for someone who is anti-choice >and I don't want to split the vote by voting for someone who isn't a >mainstream party candidate. Best bet? Kerry. Bush has already demonstrated through his re-invoking of the gag rule his complete disregard for the lives of women worldwide. The pernicious effects of this gag rule, denying funding to family planning programs that even MENTION abortion as an option, has been to increase suffering and the spread of HIV disease. This is coupled with his completely unscientific assault on the use of condoms through nonsense "abstinence only" programs. Kerry is no great shakes and seems like a wimp puppet of the corporate interests. He couldn't say "single payer healthcare" if he was paid to (and he is paid NOT to). But I'll still vote for him on the hope that at least he might be persuaded as to the need for choice, healthcare, etc. Bush absolutely, unequivocally will not -- a guy who mocks nuance in his gung-ho moron approach to politics that has resulted in so much global animosity as well as increased suffering and death. George M. Carter > snip... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Best bet? Kerry. But GMC, his *wife* gives money to the opposition!! Even Bush is in a state of total rebellion against his mother Barbara who supports *choice*. ( According to NARAL report that she mentioned this in her book). Bush has already demonstrated through his > re-invoking of the gag rule his complete disregard for the lives of > women worldwide. I know, this is why I am so up in the air about voting for either one of them. At least Nader is/was *pro-choice*, but he is doesn't run in a majority party. His only fault that I could see last election that would have an effect on me and some friends, was his plan to save water by raising the cost to farmers. >The pernicious effects of this gag rule, denying > funding to family planning programs that even MENTION abortion as an > option, has been to increase suffering and the spread of HIV disease. Oh they are doing more than just that. I think I heard they are telling doctors that they have to report women who have an abortion. A total invasion of privacy. > This is coupled with his completely unscientific assault on the use of > condoms through nonsense "abstinence only" programs. Normally I would say he was say that to curry votes from the moral majority, but in his case, he really means it!! > Kerry is no great shakes and seems like a wimp puppet of the corporate > interests. He couldn't say "single payer healthcare" if he was paid to > (and he is paid NOT to). If I hadn't been single then married and then single again, I may support him. But since I have been on both sides of the fence, had prior breaks in income due to having a child and being married, I have a fuller understanding of how singles struggle. However, GMC, my medical insurance is nearly covered by the State kicking in more money for my medical insurance policy, and they don't kick in as much money for family as they do for singles. Of course that is State Government, not private. The private sector already twists the law governing their coverage for their employees, by reducing hours etc. > But I'll still vote for him on the hope that > at least he might be persuaded as to the need for choice, healthcare, > etc. Now you are thinking the way I was before Bush won the election. I thought he might *just* be making campaign speeches. Either way, I don't want another election that is counted by hanging chad votes. hoof >Bush absolutely, unequivocally will not -- a guy who mocks nuance > in his gung-ho moron approach to politics that has resulted in so much > global animosity as well as increased suffering and death. > > George M. Carter Signature{ Disclaimer: Non Existent words contained within this poast were created in response to the Paperwork Reduction Act.} {If you have a problem with that, take it to the Environmentalists Complaint Dept.} [NOTE: It has come to my attention that water pressure booster pumps are available to city dwellers. Because of this new development, notify your local Environmentalist Complaint Dept. to begin a campaign to *ban* the sale of these pumps to those living within a municipality. (They don't need more water pressure just so their sprinklers can run water down the sewers.)] The above is a public service announcement from the Committee for *Responsible* Use of Water Pressure Booster Pumps.] A Free Thinker. > snip... > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > This is coupled with his completely unscientific assault on the use of > condoms through nonsense "abstinence only" programs.>> > Kerry is no great shakes and seems like a wimp puppet of the corporate > interests. He couldn't say "single payer healthcare" if he was paid to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > George M. Carter The election has already been decided by the cookie recipe test. It never fails. Laura's cookies beat Teresa's. jen > > snip... > > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > never fails. Laura's cookies beat Teresa's. > jen Oh crap!!! Roe v.Wade will be no more because of a cookie recipe. 4 years of watching him erode Roe V. Wade in an effort to vindicate the State of Texas for making a federal case out of abortion. It was probably his child that Roe aborted and he is getting even with her. <GAG> hoof Signature{ Disclaimer: Non Existent words contained within this poast were created in response to the Paperwork Reduction Act.} {If you have a problem with that, take it to the Environmentalists Complaint Dept.} [NOTE: It has come to my attention that water pressure booster pumps are available to city dwellers. Because of this new development, notify your local Environmentalist Complaint Dept. to begin a campaign to *ban* the sale of these pumps to those living within a municipality. (They don't need more water pressure just so their sprinklers can run water down the sewers.)] The above is a public service announcement from the Committee for *Responsible* Use of Water Pressure Booster Pumps.] A Free Thinker. > > > snip... > > > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > <GAG> > hoof After Teresa's Cookies lost the contest, she denied that it was her recipe... I'm already tired of the whole process and wish it were over. I live in Flyover Country; we're a Big Red state, and Kerry knows he ain't gettin no love from Indiana. Funny thing though - I was reading an article about how MTV and Rock the Vote were running into an unexpected rise in conservatism among younger voters, and it kinda puts a hitch in their gitalong. I never asked my daughter which way she was inclined to vote, but the other day we were just yakking and she said, "Heh- ALL of my friends are Republicans..." (And I've caught her switching over and listening to Rush...I thought that to be very odd for a 20 year old.) I don't care how anyone votes, as long as they get out and DO it. jen Just to clarify: I was yakking with my kid HERE, and not in TEXAS, where "someone" stated she is attending college. Today was move-in day, and you'd think a junior would rate a room below the 5th floor...sheeew! Only one more year of the moving in and out, unless she changes majors. jen ___________________________________________________________________ Flamingos Are Not Fragile! Give Blood - Play Rugby Hoofprints wrote in news:<bc5d9065.0408211545.59f98c40@>... <<I was surprised when my daughters friends signed up to join the armed forces, including the gurls. Rebellion certainly exists even today. An old co-worker of mine who used to swear like a sailor told me once that she behaved badly so her children would rebel, and rebel they did. They became the moral majority in their daily lives, attended church, and looked down on their mothers cussing. Her plan for child rearing was working and she was raising conservatives and proud of it.>> Hah! Funny how that one worked out. As with religion, I never tried to influence her except by example. She was always allowed to choose for herself. The only thing I did try to impress on her was that voting a "straight ticket" was the goofiest thing I'd ever heard of. (My mother is a staunch Democrat, and pulls the straight lever every time, even if she doesn't know who she's voting for, which I consider irresponsible.) Actually, I'm proud that Sylvie leans towards conservatism, but shares the pro-choice view. > I never asked my daughter which way she was inclined to vote, but > the other day we were just yakking and she said, "Heh- ALL of my > friends are Republicans..." (And I've caught her switching over and > listening to Rush...I thought that to be very odd for a 20 year old.) <<Time flies by so quickly, it seems like only last year she toddled off to college. hoof>> My Gawd, it does. Seems just yesterday we were having her Open House party, and to think she's a junior now....snifff... This should be one of the most interesting years of her life though- living on campus during an election year and wartime. She registered to vote in her first Presidential election last week. jen > I've known and respected the thoughts and philosophies of some > Republicans over the years. There used to be a great cry of "fiscal [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > George M. Carter I'm trying to find the HIV/AIDS connection in all this? snip... >I'm trying to find the HIV/AIDS connection in all this? Lots of them. Healthcare is in a shambles. So what does Bush do? Ram through, with his repugnican friends, a Medicare drug act designed to feed pharma huge amounts while screwing the elderly. Rather than price controls, we get horrible legislation. This in turn places greater pressure on states and state AIDS Drug Assistance Programs. Waiting lines are formed and people have died waiting for treatment. Globally, Bush has created more public animosity than any other sitting president. He has bankrupted the nation and put us in huge debt. He has brought us to two wars, one of which was utterly illegal. This is costing $1 billion a week. And god knows how many lives, shattered and destroyed (Americans, Iraqis, Afghans). Then they give a $10 billion contract to Accenture (who? a company with an offshore HQ) to take care of Homeland Security? One company? Meanwhile, he promises billions for HIV/AIDS. Then sets up these ridiculous unilateral PEPFAR programs that support abstinence only, install the gag rule on a woman's right to choose, and destabilize the Global Fund to fight AIDS, TB and Malaria. A program estimated to need $10 billion a year--to cover the worst three epidemics in human history. Yet now Bush is calling to not give any of the money to GFATM and has consistently underfunded the PEPFAR programs, turning a promise into a cruel lie. Yet we have BILLIONS for bloodshed? As a result, millions of men, women and children suffer horribly and die needlessly. To add insult to injury, his vile and despicable little man, the zealot Robert Zoellick, the US Trade Representative, is trotting around the world shoving horrific "free trade" (read: rape) agreements unilaterally on numerous countries. Among other provisions are "TRIPS Plus" language that prevents countries from undertaking legal compulsory licenses to either make or import generic drugs for emergency situations--like HIV/AIDS. So Pharma writes the language in and they ram it down their throats, probably relying on their ideological bent (like Australia's PM) or desperate poverty (CAFTA, Morocco) to bribe these provisions. Result? More people denied access to meds and the limited few who get them are required to pay Pharma's exorbitant price. So the few good things that are accomplished are minimized while the vast majority of funds are stolen from the American taxpayer to line the pockets of these low life scumbags and cronies of Bush and his administration. They have the blood of millions on their hands. They know it. And IF there is life after death, then I hope they get to experience the suffering, horror, grief and sadness of loss and pain that they have caused in this world. George M. Carter On 22/8/04 6:56 PM, in article 2bngi0h50nhtk2f1f0fmnavjb0hlc0ehj8@4ax.com, > snip... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > pressure on states and state AIDS Drug Assistance Programs. Waiting > lines are formed and people have died waiting for treatment. Imagine if the US had Australia's system; rather than the pharmaceutical companies screwing the tax payer, they would then have to justify their pricing. If a product costs 20% more yet only yields a 5% improvement over their last product which is available in generic form, why should that company expect the taxpayer to fork the bill for their product? Its about time the US government started demanding that drug companies justify the prices they charge for their drugs vs. the competing products out there. Charging 20% for a product that yields little or no benefit should not be a product that gets subsidised by the government. Matty SignatureMy Blog: http://kaiwai.blogspot.com Why would you want to ditch MacOS X for Solaris? Because having the power of Unix coupled with a pleasing interface and scores of usable desktop applications is a disgusting perversion of everything Unix stands for. snip >Imagine if the US had Australia's system; rather than the pharmaceutical >companies screwing the tax payer, they would then have to justify their >pricing. If a product costs 20% more yet only yields a 5% improvement over >their last product which is available in generic form, why should that >company expect the taxpayer to fork the bill for their product? That is a BRILLIANT idea--one of many that could be applied. I hope that Australia rejects the outrageous pressure of the US Trade Representative Zoellick's attempts to destroy their ability to control the prices of drugs in their current rape of a free trade agreement. gotta get rid of that Howard jerk as much as we have to get rid of Bush. >Its about time the US government started demanding that drug companies >justify the prices they charge for their drugs vs. the competing products >out there. Charging 20% for a product that yields little or no benefit >should not be a product that gets subsidised by the government. As well as having price controls in the U.S. Indeed, drug discovery by universities and governments should be retained by INDIVIDUALS. I think a lot of publicly funded clinical research could be done a lot more cheaply too (especially if prices o diagnostics and devices are brought into line). Also, stop the incredible lesions in cash flow that go into marketing and the despicable advertising. Create incentives for scientists as individuals and practitioners to collaborate in clinical trials--and this may help create greater DIVERSITY in discovery for many diseases. Right now, the pipelines are narrowing alarmingly. Pharma will, as it screws the world for profits and destroys businesses trying to cover healthcare for employees, ultimately wind up imploding on its own stupid, insensate greed unless they wise up. They have transformed the Hippocratic oath into the hypocritic oath. George M. Carter > snip... > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > George M. Carter Oi! Carter you are unstable. What an lunatic rant. sssssnip> > Result? More people denied access to meds and the limited few who get > > them are required to pay Pharma's exorbitant price. So the few good > > things that are accomplished are minimized while the vast majority of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Oi! Carter you are unstable. What an lunatic rant.>> I have to say that I agree. People hold their hands out and cry when they don't get something for nothing. Then they hire an ambulance chasing lawyer to squeeze it out of someone. The state of health care has not changed- do you think that no one died waiting for treatments under the Clinton administration? What happened to their "Healthcare for EVERY American" slop that helped get them elected? I didn't have health care coverage under their administration, and I don't have it now. What the hell is the difference? I get health care when I can pay for it, and that's the way it goes. OTOH, the Bush administration gave a huge amount of money for AIDS research in Africa, the largest handout to date as a matter of fact, and they still cry that it's not enough, and call us dirty Evil Capitalists. Maybe we should stop giving handouts and aid, close up our borders and shut the freakin' world out, because ain't nobody grateful for a damned thing we do for them. All they want is MORE of everything, and I, for one, am sick of giving to people who spit in our faces. What if we just said "Screw All Y'all"? Maybe we could spend some of that money on our own country. ***END OF EVIL CAPITALIST-CONSERVATIVE RANT*** jen _________________________________________________________________ Flamingos are not Fragile! Give Blood- Play Rugby _________________________________________________________________ (Sorry if this double-posts...) <jen2gone@cs.com> he or she gave us all a good laugh with the following... > sssssnip> > Result? More people denied access to meds and the limited > few who get [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > happened to their "Healthcare for EVERY American" slop that helped get > them elected? As I recall, the conservatives blocked it. Signature"In the arguments in favor of a declaration of rights... one which has great weight with me [is] the legal check which it puts into the hands of the judiciary." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:309 > <jen2gone@cs.com> he or she gave us all a good laugh with the following... > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > As I recall, the conservatives blocked it. > <jen2gone@cs.com> he or she gave us all a good laugh with the following... > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > As I recall, the conservatives blocked it. Right! Because like Minimum Wage, it is a zero-sum game, a catch-phrase, a worthless talking point that gets people's tail a'wagging, so let's hope they do so again. How do you propose that we pay for such a program? Is it socialised medicine that you want? Take a look at the state of Canada's health care system, not to mention the state of their military, what little they have of one. Why do you go to work? Is it just for fun? Is it so that you can make MY life better? Is it so that you can feed ME and put clothes on MY back? Hell no. It's so you can feed YOURSELF, make YOUR life better, and put food on YOUR table. Now as I am self-employed, (you may call me THE EVIL CORPORATION, if you like, even though I only have a small business...)I work for MY benefit, not yours, even though everyone gets their fair share of my tax dollars. I no longer have employees because I have found that they are, for the most part, lazy, unwilling to listen and follow directions, and they want too much and give too little, thus draining my profits instead of increasing them. The solution to that problem was to downsize and get rid of them entirely. Is that cold-hearted of me? Perhaps, but I'm not running a charity here. Corporations (especially pharms) exist to make MONEY. Doctors, and nurses go to school and work to MAKE MONEY. That is thier incentive, not just to "Help People", whatever else people may think. If you take away that incentive, they'll go find something else to do. If someone or something is leeching the profit from a business, it must make the proper adjustments in order to survive. You don't just sit back and let people TAKE from you because they think they have some divine right to what you produce, and if you think they're making that product to be "nice" to you, you're quite mistaken. I believe that the new Medicare Bill is nothing more than another entitlement program that does little or nothing but suck more money out of my pocket, and I resent it. President Bush gets nothing but a dirty look from me on that one. I'm also not interested in whether people are told about condoms and abortions, and other ways to have sex without getting pregnant... These are things that parents and families should take responsibility for ***AT HOME***. What's so damned hard about just NOT DOING IT? Are people so stupid that the government has spend millions just to tell them where babies, AIDS, and STD's come from and how to keep it from happening? I'm beginning to believe it. Like that comedian sez, "Here's yer sign..." People need to educate themselves, take responsibility for their lives, their actions, and the consequences thereof. Despite what you may have heard, it's not the government's responsibility, and I resent paying for it. If you need something, work harder so that you can afford it. If you want to help a certain group, give them YOUR money, get up off YOUR a.s and go help them, but stop begging the money out of the pockets of people like me. jen __________________________________________________________________ Up Yerz, PUNKVOTER.com. NOFX= 3 Dweebs and a Ween...so long and thanks for all the "news". Shut up and sing; that's what I pay you for! ___________________________________________________________________ > Right! Because like Minimum Wage, it is a zero-sum > game, Healthcare? > a catch-phrase, a worthless talking point that gets > people's tail a'wagging, so let's hope they do so again. Are you on drugs? > How do you propose that we pay for such a program? Every single other nation in the developed world -- without exception -- already does exactly that. They pay for it. They manage. Why do you think that we're inferior to western Europe? > Is it socialised medicine that you want? Why not? > Take a look at the state of Canada's health care system, It's in pretty good shape. > not to mention the state of their military, Is this a penis thing? Do you have issues you need to deal with? "Joining the modern world will mean that our military will shrink." Well, there are alternatives. For example, the rich can start paying their fair share (percentage) of taxes. > Why do you go to work? So you think the fairy god-employer is going to lavish healthcare on you no matter what? Please. That's retarded. Apparently in a drug induced stupor, JTEM wrote: > Right! Because like Minimum Wage, it is a zero-sum > game, Healthcare?>> Er, yes, healthcare. Do you have a reading comprehension problem, or do you not understand the meaning of "zero-sum game"? I will dumb it down for you, dear. It means that that it all comes out even. If minimum wage is raised, the cost of living will rise accordingly, and you will be no better off than you were before. It works the same when you are talking about giving away health care. > a catch-phrase, a worthless talking point that gets > people's tail a'wagging, so let's hope they do so again. <<Are you on drugs?>> Are you a hippie or just a dullard? Perhaps you slept through Econ 101. I will use small words so that you can keep up. > How do you propose that we pay for such a program? Every single other nation in the developed world -- without exception -- already does exactly that. They pay for it. They manage. Why do you think that we're inferior to western Europe?>> ...Er, we are hardly inferior to Western Europe. Why do you think people ship thier family members here for specialised care? Why do you think their doctors migrate to the US? Perhaps it's because in the US they get PAID for their skills? > Is it socialised medicine that you want? <<Why not?>> Because I don't want to pay for your bad teeth, a shot of Demerol for someone faking a headache, my neighbor's illegitimate baby, some tart's boob job, the irresponsible behavior of some crackhead who won't get a job, or to have some lardass SURGICALLY DETATCHED from their sofa. (Which actually happened a couple of weeks ago, and the money was wasted because the woman died anyway...) > Take a look at the state of Canada's health care system, It's in pretty good shape.>> I beg to differ. Perhaps you should drop whatever Utopian view you have of other countries and read their news. Better yet, see about getting in line to wait for specialised care in Ontario. > not to mention the state of their military,> Is this a penis thing? Do you have issues you need to deal with?>> I fail to see what a penis has to do with this subject, and the issue is clear. Once again, read some news and look at the shabby state of the Canadian military. << "Joining the modern world will mean that our military will shrink.">> That was not a part of my post, and I fail to see the relevance of that sad statement to the issue at hand. <<Well, there are alternatives. For example, the rich can start paying their fair share (percentage) of taxes.>> Perhaps a visual aid will help. Try viewing a pie chart to see just who actually bears the burden of taxes in the the US. > Why do you go to work?>> <<So you think the fairy god-employer is going to lavish healthcare on you no matter what? Please. That's retarded.>> I must now assume that you DO have a reading comprehension problem. I stated that I am SELF-EMPLOYED, and work not to provide for YOU, but to provide for ME. My statement also included that I expect to pay for MY OWN healthcare and do not care to pay for YOURS. It is my sincere hope that this response has been easy enough for you to read and comprehend. jen > Er, yes, healthcare. Do you have a reading comprehension > problem, or do you not understand the meaning of "zero-sum > game"? The entire industrialized world -- outside the United States -- already provides national healthcare. Their costs are lower than here in the United States. I'll rephrase that: The United States already pays more for healthcare than any other nation on Earth, including the entire industrialized world which already provides national healthcare to its people. > I will dumb it down for you, dear. ...in the same way we get orange juice from oranges. > It means that that it all comes out even. As I just pointed out, it's not even. Costs are much, *Much* higher here in the United States than *Anywhere* else in the world. > If minimum wage is raised, the cost of living will rise > accordingly, and you will be no better off than you were > before. It works the same when you are talking about > giving away health care. But it doesn't. At least not here in reality. Every other industrial country on the planet already provides healthcare to everyone, and their costs are much LOWER. The United States has the single most expensive healthcare system on the planet. You damn psycho... <<<ssssnip of ridiculous leftist Utopianism>>> > The United States has the single most expensive healthcare > system on the planet. > > You damn psycho...>> Of course it's expensive - it's the best care available in the world, and it must be PAID for accordingly. I don't sell my product for less than it is worth, and neither should they. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but you're more than welcome to extract yourself from the system. It's a free country. The stomping of feet and name calling is typical and boring. Please incorporate a bit of imagination into your little tantrum. You may call me all the names you like, and when our healthcare system is nationalised I promise to buy you a big ol' honkin' dinner, mmmmkay? Until then don't hold your breath or stop buying groceries. jen > Of course it's expensive - it's the best care available in the > world, and it must be PAID for accordingly. We're not paying for the care. The difference in OVERHEAD is enough to cover the cost of healthcare for many millions of other Americans. > Apparently in a drug induced stupor, JTEM wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > better off than you were before. It works the same when you are > talking about giving away health care. First I challenge you to provide data that shows the cost of living index has ever followed the minimum wage in the lock step way you claim above. The massive number of undocumented workers (mainly minimum wage and sub minimum wage workers) provide a huge pool of labor that is resistant to wage increases that is why the US government does so little to control the problem, thus it is a strong counter to increases of the minimum wage having major effects on the cost of living index in this country. Well to take what your saying about health care out to a logical construct one could do the following. First take a look at what is spent on Health Care in the US economy under the current system as a percentage of GDP the US spends 75% more then does Canada which is the closest developed country spending wise, the US spends up to 200% more as a percentage of GDP then does most of Western Europe. Then calculate the reduction in spending that occurs when you remove the profits and the overhead of the private insurance companies. No less then that stalwart free marketer Newt Gingrich estimates in his health plan proposal that would amount to about a 30% to 50% reduction in costs. The spread depends on implementing a nation wide computerized health data recording and billing system to reach the 50% cost reduction goal. At this point one recognizes that the current system supplies decent health care to almost 2/3 of the US population so a cost reduction of 50% supplies more then adequate funding to cover the so called uninsured population of the US with room to spare. Add in the cost reduction of reduced emergency room use by the uninsured and better preventive medicine and Gringich estimates that another 10% to 15% cost reduction can be attained. Thus by spending less money as a percentage of GDP then we do as a nation today we can have health care for every American and not have the problems of Canada's system because we will still be spending substantially more as a percentage of GDP then they do. So rather then being a Zero Sum Game it ends up that a nationalized health care plan would provide better care to more people at a significantly reduced percentage of the US's GDP who would of thunk it, not you it seems. You should really read Gringrich's plan, when even the staunchest right winger such as Gingrich recognizes that the US health care system is irretrievably broken one has some hope that there might be a chance politically for something to be done to solve the problem. Gary Stein Starwars wrote in article <bc5d9065.0408240216.43ab0352@posting.google.com> jen2gone@cs.com (jen) wrote: > Because I don't want to pay for your bad teeth, a shot of Demerol > for someone faking a headache, my neighbor's illegitimate baby, some > tart's boob job, the irresponsible behavior of some crackhead who > won't get a job, or to have some lardass SURGICALLY DETATCHED from > their sofa. (Which actually happened a couple of weeks ago, and the > money was wasted because the woman died anyway...) Seriously - this woman's skin had literally GROWN into the sofa, having sat there for about 4 years! (And she obviously never got up to go to the restroom, either.) They say the smell was so putrid that they had to have fans air the place out so the techs could work. It's beyond my imagination. <<Hey, maybe that's why *your pet* has been so quiet lately?>> Oh what a shame. No more Hammy. *snigger*>> Quiet?! Hardly. I've let her off her leash and she's been nothing less than her usual self in ASHC. Killfiling is no help because of the name changes. I thought I had found her a new home, but the gentleman was a bit wary of the cleanup involved. Hope the roses are doing well- jen >> Apparently in a drug induced stupor, JTEM wrote: >> jen2gone@cs.com (jen) wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > Gary Stein Just as I assumed none of the free marketers have any comment on my post, when faced with real numbers they simply ignore the truth so they can continue to blindly follow there ideological paths without dealing with that nasty old thing called reality.................... snip >Are you a hippie or just a dullard? Perhaps you slept through Econ >101. I will use small words so that you can keep up. Jen, if we had a single payer healthcare system, exorbitant and accelerating costs to businesses could be substantially reduced if not eliminated. This, coupled with price controls, could help millions of people--and LOTS of businesses. Gee. Like yours--you could afford to hire more people and you too would have coverage. When we spend 14% of our GDP and 43+ million of us are uninsured and many millions more are getting screwed by avaricious insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies while a country like Germany can spend 9% of its GDP on healthcare and cover EVERYONE, then it seems to me that it is an economic, as well as ethical, imperative. George M. Carter >> Jen, if we had a single payer healthcare system, exorbitant and > accelerating costs to businesses could be substantially reduced if not [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > George M. Carter George, the only true thing is that when you stretch out your hand to feed an animal, it will most likely be bitten. jen >>> Jen, if we had a single payer healthcare system, exorbitant and >> accelerating costs to businesses could be substantially reduced if not [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > George, the only true thing is that when you stretch out your hand >to feed an animal, it will most likely be bitten. I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I've held my hand out to many animals, human or otherwise. Some you can tell they want to bite. Others are quite friendly or curious. This does reveal a rather jaded worldview, I'd say. And otherwise doesn't contribute meaningfully to the discussion. George M. Carter > >>> Jen, if we had a single payer healthcare system, exorbitant and > >> accelerating costs to businesses could be substantially reduced if not [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > George M. Carter George, something will give somewhere if there is a change. They will be cutting more corners than they already cut. hoof Signature{ Disclaimer: Non Existent words contained within this poast were created in response to the Paperwork Reduction Act.} {If you have a problem with that, take it to the Environmentalists Complaint Dept.} [NOTE: It has come to my attention that water pressure booster pumps are available to city dwellers. Because of this new development, notify your local Environmentalist Complaint Dept. to begin a campaign to *ban* the sale of these pumps to those living within a municipality. (They don't need more water pressure just so their sprinklers can run water down the sewers.)] The above is a public service announcement from the Committee for *Responsible* Use of Water Pressure Booster Pumps.] A Free Thinker. > > George, the only true thing is that when you stretch out your hand > >to feed an animal, it will most likely be bitten. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > George M. Carter It's a euphemism, George. Apply it to the subject of discussion from the view of a person in business for themselves. I'm just too jaded to explain it to you. In fact, jaded doesn't begin to describe the naivete I've seen in this thread. When our healthcare system is nationalised and we all have free healthcare I'll take you our to dinner too. Until then, I need to do a bit of landscaping in order to repay my doctor for some stitches. (Really.) jen snip > It's a euphemism, George. Apply it to the subject of discussion >from the view of a person in business for themselves. I'm just too >jaded to explain it to you. In fact, jaded doesn't begin to describe >the naivete I've seen in this thread. It's a euphemism that is unclear. It sounds as though you're saying humans are wild animals who bite. Hey. Some are. Some aren't. It doesn't matter in terms of providing appropriate care when and where it is needed. > When our healthcare system is nationalised and we all have free >healthcare I'll take you our to dinner too. Cool. > Until then, I need to do a bit of landscaping in order to repay my >doctor for some stitches. (Really.) Right. If we had a single payer healthcare system, you and I would STILL have to work some to pay for the stitches--but with a pool of 270 million folks working together--and with reining in the outrageous and out-of-control costs imposed by pharma, diagnostics, etc. and MAYBE with some tort reform and patent law reform--the cost of those stitches would intrinsically and collectively plunge. And you could probably hire help. And it would be good for US businesses and the economy in general. George M. Carter Dear Jen, Your post compelled me to register. ;) So I'm new here. I just wished to point out that there will NEVER be any such thing as "free health care". In fact, I can scarcely think of a more humorous description of it. If the march of socialism in our country continues, we may get socialist medical care, but the idea that its free is more than an abstracted oxymoron, its delusional. Do you really think that because YOU won't pay for it, that it will be "free"? You just want someone other than YOU to pay your bills. We all have that part of our character, but we all dont' wish to enthrone it in law. I have been a private business owner since 1984. I have had very hard times. I'd bet allot harder than ever you experienced. I've had some pretty good times too. But I don't blame the govt. for them, nor look to them as my saviour. There is the basic problem. Charles > > > George, the only true thing is that when you stretch out your hand > > >to feed an animal, it will most likely be bitten. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > jen >Dear Jen, > >Your post compelled me to register. ;) So I'm new here. I just wished >to point out that there will NEVER be any such thing as "free health >care". Oh,for god's sakes. No one is asking for "free" healthcare. The demand is for a single payer healthcare system. That being the US government to assure that EVERYONE is covered. The news now notes that 45 million of us are uninsured. And there's greater poverty. Thank you George Bush and you're brain dead trickle down approach and giveaways to pharma. We ALREADY pay a HUGE amount for healthcare, directly or indirectly. A single payer system and price controls could bring those costs down dramatically and assure EVERYONE has access. (And hey, it doesn't even preclude having private insurance for the fabulously wealthy. Though a good single payer system would probably render that irrelevant.) George M. Carter Ain't the US version of healthcare working just great? George M. Carter ** http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/26/national/26cnd-cens.html?hp More Americans Are Living in Poverty, Census Bureau Says By BRIAN KNOWLTON Published: August 26, 2004 WASHINGTON, Aug. 26 The number of Americans living in poverty rose by 1.3 million last year, to 35.9 million, while those without health insurance climbed by 1.4 million, to 45 million, the Census Bureau reported today. snip... Dear Sir, Your collectivist assumptions are only that... assumptions. Its as though it were impossible for the world to have health care unless we had it via socialism. Did you ever consider that you woultn't NEED someone else to pay your bills if they just had tort reform? They would be such as you could afford them.... you know... like your mother used to do. Can you explain why you can't go to the doctor and get a gall bladder removed in a 1 hour operation for 500.00? So why are they 10,000? Because of insurance, and tort abuse, and the wimpiness of the population, who are so afraid of life's liabilities that they have a heart attack if their government god fails to guarantee them butter on both sides of their toast. As for me, if I get sick and can't pay for it, I will either seek some form of private charity, or go home and die. That's ok, isn't it? Or is dying a sin too? Charles > >Dear Jen, > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > George M. Carter >Dear Sir, > >Your collectivist assumptions are only that... assumptions. Utterly incorrect. There are models of such systems of healthcare that work. And we do not need to make any assumptions about the state of healthcare in the United States: it is abysmal. And getting worse. The boneheaded ideas of Bush in this regard are great for the rich (savings plans) and suck for the rest of America. >Its as >though it were impossible for the world to have health care unless we >had it via socialism. Did you ever consider that you woultn't NEED >someone else to pay your bills if they just had tort reform? Rhetorical question presumes an answer that is not based on anything--ergo an assumption. Tort reform is probably an important piece of improving healthcare -- but not the kind that abrogates patients' RIGHT to sue, as suggested by repugnicans. However, in and of itself, it will most certainly not be adequate to provide healthcare. Price controls, a single payer system. >They >would be such as you could afford them.... you know... like your [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >charity, or go home and die. That's ok, isn't it? Or is dying a sin >too? I see. So you're fine with that choice. Others may not be. And I support my country's efforts to create a fair and equitable system of healthcare to all. It makes our nation stronger. It helps our people to be stronger--and pursue happiness. George M. Carter >>>> Jen, if we had a single payer healthcare system, exorbitant and >>> accelerating costs to businesses could be substantially reduced if not [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > George M. Carter What do you mean, "jaded world view?" Don't you recognize the harmonious voice of "compassionate conservatism" when you hear it? A HIDEOUS view of ones fellow men and scarcely a Christian view or a decent one! ward ---------------------------------------------------- "You can't craft a vicious, mean-spirited platform and then try to put lipstick on the pig by putting Rudy Giuliani and Arnold Schwarzenegger on in prime time. Christopher Barron of the Log Cabin Republicans ---------------------------------------------------- snip... >What do you mean, "jaded world view?" Don't you recognize the >harmonious voice of "compassionate conservatism" when you hear it? LOL... >A HIDEOUS view of ones fellow men and scarcely a Christian view or a >decent one! Hey, benefit of the doubt. I have my days when I wonder if this species is worth bothering with....reminds of the joke.... Red planet asks Blue Planet, "why so down?" Blue planet groans morosely, "I have HUMANS...." George M. Carter > George, the only true thing is that when you stretch out your hand > to feed an animal, it will most likely be bitten. That should teach you to have bait in it. B/ >sssssnip> > Result? More people denied access to meds and the limited >few who get [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >happened to their "Healthcare for EVERY American" slop that helped get >them elected? It developed that the very sinsible plans and outlines of Hillary Clinton, which won rave reviews from BOTH SIDES of the legislature ran afoul of the Doctors, the Pharmaceutical industry, the Hospitals and the health care insurance rackets and was defeated utterly -- we are now left with a health care delivery system which is choking us in extravagant and unafordable helath care costs in a system designed to proitect the insurance companies, the bottomlessly greedy pharmeceutical industry and the relentlessly greedy doctors and hospitals. > I didn't have health care coverage under their >administration, and I don't have it now. What the hell is the >difference? I get health care when I can pay for it, and that's the >way it goes. Good luck! > OTOH, the Bush administration gave a huge amount of money for AIDS >research in Africa, the largest handout to date as a matter of fact, >and they still cry that it's not enough, and call us dirty Evil >Capitalists. This magnificent bequest denies the use of condoms which DO slow the spread of HIV and insists on "abstinence" programs which DO NOT! Further it is REQUIRED that medication be bought at grotesquely inflated American prices and not from the international free market. ward -------------------------- Ward and George 48 years together and yet Strangers before the law. -------------------------- snip >> I didn't have health care coverage under their >>administration, and I don't have it now. What the hell is the >>difference? I get health care when I can pay for it, and that's the >>way it goes. > >Good luck! Really kinda moronic. If you get sick, the costs will likely be GREATER in the long run because things caught earlier may have been treated more effectively. So our lives are at risk (I have no insurance either). It is one of the reasons that we pay 14% of our GDP on healthcare and 43+ million have no insurance. Meanwhile, they spend something like 9% in places where EVERYONE is covered. It is ECONOMICALLY moronic. >> OTOH, the Bush administration gave a huge amount of money for AIDS >>research in Africa, the largest handout to date as a matter of fact, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Further it is REQUIRED that medication be bought at grotesquely >inflated American prices and not from the international free market. Right--and Ward, you realize too that he has underfunded year over year his promised amounts while having created a whole new bureaucracy. Meanwhile, millions are dying while he dreams up new schemes to turn more monies over to Pharma...or rather simply signs on to the schemes they come up with as he hasn't got the brains, but just the cunning, to do otherwise. George M. Carter More abstinence only Bushit. Why, I'm sure it is every bit as effective as Nancy Reagan's marvelous drug policy, "just say no"! See? No more drugs? Now there will be no more sex except under the sanctity of permanent marriages! (Let's hope they make divorce illegal too....and then maybe they can institute the death penalty for people that f.ck around on their spouses! Yippee!! That'll keep 'em in line and be biblically correct...) George M. Carter ** Abstinence-only programs exported overseas Vanessa Brocato USA *********** Abstinence-only-until-marriage programs are being exported overseas in the name of HIV/AIDS prevention! Contrary to public health experts and studies world-wide, the Bush Administration is insisting on abstinence-until-marriage as the general approach to HIV-prevention efforts in countries receiving U.S. foreign aid. In February 2004, the Bush Administration released the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief: U.S. Five-Year Global HIV/AIDS Strategy. Among other prevention, treatment, and care initiatives, the U.S. Strategy will provide not less than $133 million annually on abstinence-until-marriage programs in focus countries in Africa and the Caribbean as well as Vietnam. Want to know what abstinence-only-until-marriage programs look like? The Silver Ring Thing is an example of the type of program that may receive funding. The Silver Ring Thing uses comedy skits, music, and a high-tech club-like atmosphere to communicate its abstinence-only-until-marriage message to middle and high school students. At the end of the presentation, students are offered the opportunity to take a pledge of abstinence until marriage, symbolized by placing silver rings on their fingers. Rings are intended to be worn until the students' wedding nights. Like other abstinence-only-until-marriage programs, the Silver Ring Thing promotes complete abstinence as the only way to stay physically and emotionally healthy. The program does not mention contraception at all. For participants who have been sexually active in the past, the program offers "Second Virginity," another chance to remain abstinent-until-marriage. Silver Ring Thing founder Dennis Pattyn told the Agape Press, "The enemy certainly is out there wanting to destroy the work-and sometimes the enemy is actually the church itself, unbelievably-but we're having to be much more careful about how we operate. We don't ever want to take the gospel [out] of our message because we believe the power for abstinence is a changed heart, not a ring on a finger." Pattyn estimates that 20 percent of participants who receive the silver ring also choose to "give their lives over to Christ." This program already receives federal dollars to operate domestically. The Silver Ring Thing has been singled-out by Congress as a model program that should "merit special consideration by the AIDS Coordinator," when deciding which programs should be funded under the "prevention" component of the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief: U.S. Five-Year Global HIV/AIDS Strategy. Please visit www.nonewmoney.org today to send your message, and please forward this message along to friends and colleagues. Click on the "International" button to read more about how U.S. abstinence-only-until-marriage programs are being exported overseas, and to write the Bush Administration about what you think of this so-called "prevention" effort. Best, Vanessa Vanessa Brocato International Policy Assistant The Sexuality Information and Education Council of the U.S. (SIECUS) www.siecus.org vbrocato@siecusdc.org (202) 265-2405 (phone) (202) 462-2340 (fax) 1706 R Street, NW Washington, DC 20009 U.S.A. --------- A posting from GENDER-AIDS (gender-aids@eforums.healthdev.org) To submit a posting, send to gender-aids@eforums.healthdev.org For anonymous postings, add the word "anon" to the subject line To join, send a blank message to join-gender-aids@eforums.healthdev.org To leave, send a blank email to leave-gender-aids@eforums.healthdev.org For details of how to access discussion archives: http://www.hdnet.org You are currently subscribed to GENDER-AIDS as: fiar@verizon.net --------- GENDER-AIDS is coordinated by the Health & Development Networks Moderation Team (HDN, www.hdnet.org, info@hdnet.org) with the support of Development Cooperation Ireland (www.dci.gov.ie). The views expressed in this forum do not necessarily reflect those of HDN or DCI. Reproduction welcomed provided source is cited as follows: GENDER-AIDS eForum 2004: gender-aids@eforums.healthdev.org ...> >Oi! Carter you are unstable. What an lunatic rant. LOL. Thanks for sharing your insightful comments. Perhaps you have an actual specific criticism? George M. Carter > ....> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > George M. Carter You are not worth the effort George. snip >> LOL. Thanks for sharing your insightful comments. Perhaps you have an >> actual specific criticism? > >You are not worth the effort George. Ergo, you have nothing constructive to offer. Good bye! George M. Carter > snip > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > George M. Carter Does that you are going away? ... glory be to .... "They brought America to war on lies. Countless thousands have been killed or horribly injured and mutilated. Many children among them." For once a post from you I agree with. Goes to prove that no one is all bad. Well said George. Ever considered that 'AIDS' too may be a lie with social, political and economic motives? Everyone believed in the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and they were a myth. No, I am sure you haven't. Silly me. You could not be wrong about 'AIDS', could you? Still a good post on one subject at least. Best wishes, Paul |
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